thanks for the invite Azscoob, just got my next brew day supplies in for this coming Friday night. I'll be making a Belgian Dark Strong, inspired from a certain favorite John Carpenter flick, because its supposed to storm, and mostly because I love BDS, especially Rochefort 8 and 10. I would love to hear everyone's inputs - I've only been brewing for about 6/7 mo now - 5th all grain batch. I call it: "You just listen to the old Pork Chop Express here now and take his advice on a Dark and Stormy Night":

Boil Size: 7.5
Batch Size 5.5
80 min boil - Azscoob - I know you've talked about DMS - I haven't noticed it yet. I'm bucking the 90 min boil again, unless you/anyone thinks its necessary
Estimated OG: 1.097
Estimated FG 1.024
ABV: 9.5%
IBU: 24.5
SRM: 36.7 - not worried about staying within color guidelines

Wyeast 1762 for 3 days at 65F
Wyeast 3787 to bat cleanup - in carboy for 1 month until primed with 4oz cane, .75 oz turbinado solution in bottling bucket, added to 22 oz bottles with a couple 12 oz for monthly testing. Plan on tasting at 1, 2, 4, 6 mo. Save one for a year if I'm patient enough.

Fermentables
10lb Belgian 2-row -49.7%
3lb Belgian Special B -14.9%
2lb German Caramunich II -9.9%
1lb Belgian Unmalted Wheat -5%
.5lb Flaked Oats -2.5%
.755lb D-45 Amber Candi Syrup -3.7% -15 min boil
2.13lb Clear Candi Syrup -10.6% -12 min boil
.25 lb D-90 Dark Candi Syrup -1.2% -8 min boil
.5lb D-180 Dark Candi Syrup - 2.5% -5 min boil
Wyeast Nutrient solution - 10 min boil

Mash
1. 125F 25min rest
2. 135F 40min
3. 145F 75 min
4. 170F Fly Sparge
5. Batch sparge until reach desired clarity

Hops
1 oz East Kent Goldings -46 min (4.8AA) 12.73 Total IBUs
1 oz El Dorado -7 min (15.3AA) 11.78 Total IBUs

Question 1: What do you think of starting with 1762 and cleaning up with 3787. I'd like the warming characteristics of 1762 (not too much!) but being that this is my largest brew to date, wanted the reassurance and beast-like qualities I've heard about with 3787,

Question 2: What is optimal storage temperature for storing something this long? Is room temp (70F) too hot to store and will 1.5 or 2x the time, or is 55-65 better? Let me know!

Question 3: My sugars are 18% of the boil. I've read 20% and less is best for a BDS but let me know if that is still way over the top. What do you think? I've read on some Candi Sugar sites that combing certain amounts of their various sugars will give the brew a nice complex depth. So far, I've read Raisin/Stone Fruit, Chocolatey, soft/mellow bitterness, slightly toasty is the way to go, and of course, when I drink a BDS, that's what I can tell. To me, BDSs are like drinking a warm hug/cozy. Its warming up now, but thought it would be the time to have it for next fall/winter.

Question 4: I was sold on the El Dorado because it is supposed to be floral and have that stone fruit characteristic and the EK Goldings because I actually think of English Nut Browns a little when I drink a BDS - thought it would be a soft addition so the hops didn't overtake the malt, but just be balanced.

Thanks in advance and thanks for having me.

Lakewood said:

I'll check my recipe building guidelines when I get home tonight, but off the top of my head 15% special b seems high.

As far as aging, the best aging conditions are similar to those for wine. Around 60 degrees and stable.

I've never used el dorado, so I'm not familiar with the flavor profile.

You can get away with more sugars if you are using belgian candi or invert sugars, since they have a nonfermentable component and various flavors. If just just load a beer with 18% corn sugar you will be sad. 18% invert sugars will be fine, just use the darker sugars. I'd cut down the clear to about 1.25 lbs and up the darker candi.

Welcome to the site

Thanks for the info - you think the Special B might just completely take this one over and over power the yeast characteristics? Thanks for the heads up - this was a tricky recipe for me not having gone this big before - I actually had it at 10.5 abv at one point and thought it better to reduce the sugar than "have" to get to double digit ABV

@CZs I moved this over here. Lots of great info.

Lemme dig into my BDSA recipe, I think I'm around 5-7% special-b in recipes I use it in.

Though I am a fan of a touch of debittered black in my darker beers

70 degrees is fine for ageing

I like the wheat in there ... good call
I would personally skip the oats entirely though ... adds too much mouth feel for the style

ceannt said:

Maybe make up the difference in what I have suggested to cut down on with munich malt .....

Thanks ceannt - very valuable input. If possible - what do you suggest for creating a larger abv while balancing the Special B, Munich, or other darker grains and using the sugar? This recipe formulation is a def step up for me in advancing my understanding - On one hand - I wanted it to be a 10-10.5 abv, but, am willing to go down in the 9.25-9.5 area for the sake of it being a better beer - I don't want to be on the low, low end of this style though as I'd like to compare it to between a Rochfort 8/10. Don't want too much overpowering Raisiny/sweet, however, don't want a lot of sugar to make up for it. Should I have used more Pils? I absolutely love the unmalted wheat - for slight haze and for authenticity's sake. However, blame azscoob for the oats lol. Ever since his Cottage House Saison I love the silkiness no matter what the style and kind of makes my beers my own. I understand what you're saying though - I have a tough time staying within guidelines when I find an aspect I enjoy.

ceannt said:

CZs said:

ceannt said:

Maybe make up the difference in what I have suggested to cut down on with munich malt .....

Thanks ceannt - very valuable input. If possible - what do you suggest for creating a larger abv while balancing the Special B, Munich, or other darker grains and using the sugar? This recipe formulation is a def step up for me in advancing my understanding - On one hand - I wanted it to be a 10-10.5 abv, but, am willing to go down in the 9.25-9.5 area for the sake of it being a better beer - I don't want to be on the low, low end of this style though as I'd like to compare it to between a Rochfort 8/10. Don't want too much overpowering Raisiny/sweet, however, don't want a lot of sugar to make up for it. Should I have used more Pils? I absolutely love the unmalted wheat - for slight haze and for authenticity's sake. However, blame azscoob for the oats lol. Ever since his Cottage House Saison I love the silkiness no matter what the style and kind of makes my beers my own. I understand what you're saying though - I have a tough time staying within guidelines when I find an aspect I enjoy.

I can understand the desire to use ingredients that you like in other styles!
You want this style to be very highly attenuated.... low mash temps... long mash... etc. I like to mash at 148 or so for an hour and a half on these... too much crystal malts like the special B and caramunich kinda defeat this... you need some, but its easy to overdo.

You can either bump up the base malt, or add plain old munich malt to get the abv up. Remember, with the lower mash temps, you will get more bang for your buck as far as apv goes than "normal", say than if you mashed at 154...

Don't loose your mind trying to stay in the guidelines... but you want it "close enough" to tell what it is...

You will get a good bit of flavor from the sugars, and the yeast... just a little special B and caramunich go a long way......

great point about getting more bang out of lower, longer mash time - thanks, this really helps

FWIW, I would use the pilsen to boost the ABV. Munich isn't my first choice there, just because it has a more distinctive flavor.

Basically the equation in my head is:

More. Body. Less
OG: Pilsen/2-row ---------- simple sugars


Then add to that base the grains needed to achieve the flavor profile.

If you overshoot your og after adding the flavor grains, then back off the OG components, but maintain the same ratio.

The simple sugars component can be broken down into different grades and types to match the grain flavor proflie. (His is important in my mind -- don't try to add flavors with sugars, just balance and support existing flavors. When in doubt err on the side of using more straight up corn or table sugars, and add specialy grains to get the complex flavors of toasty, caramel, plum, etc. If you have them from grains already, they can be supported by the candi inverts.

*soapbox off*

I want some.

I like the Munich malt idea, it is one of those grains that go great in most anything,

Like in a hefe... :D

awesome! I'm def going to taste at 1 to 2 months, just for the sake of "how's it doing so far?" aka I'm an impatient son of a gun. Thanks for the help again - I will post sometime this coming weekend after my Friday night brew session.

EDIT: one last question, we swears precious - what do you think about my 5.75 oz prime for this?

Per the style guidelines (such as they are) this style should be highly carbonated ... to the point that regular craft beer bottles will send shrapnel all over your house .... so unless you are using heavy duty bottles don't do it!
I don't like beer that carbonated anyway ....
3 ounces is plenty

CZs said:

hmm, I've been doing 4 oz cane, .75 oz turbinado and that gets me a medium carb for a 5-5.25 gallon batch - going with 6 gals on this one - I like it just "solid" not low but not uber effervescent - Maybe just do 4.25 cane, .75 oz turbinado - just a slight increase? Thoughts - how about you azscoob? Thoughts on getting a medium carb on this?

it's a big hassle to try to boost carbonation once it's been bottled, but it's easy enough to pour vigorously and let it sit for a while to compensate for overcarbing just a bit.

FromZwolle said:

CZs said:

hmm, I've been doing 4 oz cane, .75 oz turbinado and that gets me a medium carb for a 5-5.25 gallon batch - going with 6 gals on this one - I like it just "solid" not low but not uber effervescent - Maybe just do 4.25 cane, .75 oz turbinado - just a slight increase? Thoughts - how about you azscoob? Thoughts on getting a medium carb on this?

it's a big hassle to try to boost carbonation once it's been bottled, but it's easy enough to pour vigorously and let it sit for a while to compensate for overcarbing just a bit.

that's usually how I err - what do you think you might do amount wise with this style for 6 gal?

so,assuming you'll store the bottles at 68F, the 4.25 or table sugar and the .75 of turbinado is right on track.

You can tell I am not a big fan of a lot of carbonation huh? To me .... anything more than a quarter inch of head is too much ....

You could do a fairly hoppy ESB .... or a brown porter ... they are "supposed" to be fairly low in carbonation .... and are pretty much why I like carb levels like that .... for years that's about all I drank

ceannt said:

To me .... anything more than a quarter inch of head is too much ....

That's so sad. Wait, are we talking beer?

CZs said:

love Iron Hill's Pig Iron Porter:

Pig Iron Porter
OG: 1.057 Color: 23 L IBU: 37 Alc by Vol: 5.4%
A classic porter, dark and full of roasted malt flavor. Chocolate notes are well balanced by a slight bitterness.
Awards: 2002 GABF Bronze medal winner

 2010 GABF Gold medal winner

ok - you've sold me on the low carb for this style - as soon as I expand into Porter I will keep the low end in mind

When you are ready ..... I have a recipe posted on here that I would put up against any commercial example

do most of you feel that the IBU to OG comparison will make this beer "unbalanced"- I've gotten a comment on hbt about mine being too low and didn't here otherwise on here - thoughts?

that's precisely why i stopped going there for advice. lots of armchair coaching. if you consider your final fg vs your ibu's, it fits just fine.

FromZwolle and Lakewood - thanks again - I always like to hear both sides from those that have done it before me - tell me if I'm wrong - if I went by another estimation of getting the ratio to .297 instead of current .227, aka "balanced", that means i'd have to be in the 30-35 ibu range. I really didn't want to get into the higher end of the ibu range for this style. Even if it was a little maltier - I don't think it would end up being an ruined batch and in fact, I think these brews naturally have a sweeter element to them - I can't imagine calling anything a bad brew unless it was truly toxic or unbearably undrinkable.

If anything, I'll up it to 27 and leave it at that just to say I gave every consideration a fair shot. I have fairly thick skin - if I ever decide to submit to a competition, maybe I'll become a little stricter but yea, I do see some constructive criticism v. constant criticism out there - I think there's a gap in understanding between what is hardcore stylists v. hardcore enthusiasts with some grey area in between. For the sake of learning, I just don't want to box myself in or put labels on what is "right" and what is "wrong" in a brew

Don't listen to those digit heads over there!
they may understand the math ... but not the art.

The numbers can be deceiving ... a highly attenuated beer will have a much greater perception of bitterness than a chewy less attenuated beer of the same O.G

Just to update - had an enjoyable brew session last night along with probably too much Rochefort 10 - also had to swap for some tasting of Chimay Blue and some Ommegang Three Philosophers - it was the longest brew session in the history of man and I'm paying for it today. Good times - thank goodness I wrote all the exact, real boil times on my brew sheet, otherwise it would have gone unnoticed :)

Aside from the good drinks and good friends - if I had to take away anything from my first BDS brewing experience, it would be that

A. I absolutely love El Dorado hops - for a 15.3 AA, it contributed nice chewy, rummy and black cherry like aromas at the 12 min mark - not quite as bold as the New Zealands but I think that was a good thing here - almost like a fruit punch. Heck, after a few drinks - I couldn't stop wanting to just smell it as is before plunking it in the boil. If you haven't used it before - I highly suggest experimenting with it - played nice with the easy-going Kent Goldings.

B. The De-bittered black is something I would like to use moving forward on all my darker beers - I really feel like it gave a deeper complexity and it was present among the Special B and Caramunich II. I def got a roasty, coffee, cocoa vibe mixed with the dark fruit you come to expect

C. If you add D-45 syrup first, at least 1/2lb plus to even a 6 gal brew, depending on your bill, don't freak out if you get more of a cough-medicine red hue to your brew, add additional, darker syrups and/or have faith that by the time it gets to the carboy, it will be nice and dark brown. Also - I'll probably never buy the D-45, D-90, D-180 again and be damned with authenticity - I've made versions of each of these with DAP and mine were noticeably the same, if not more complex. However, when I make mine now, I use Date sugar and I think that is where you can close the gap on the commercial stuff. That's about as much as you'll read me stroking my own ego - I really believe now it isn't worth it - for me anyways.

D. 20+lbs of grain needs to be compensated for - thank goodness I upped the qts/lbs of grain - I got just ever so slightly under 8 gals pre-boil AND - do not attempt to be boozed up and carry an 11 gallon pot with 6 gals of beer down a set of steep stairs - you might give yourself a hernia - seek a friend!

That's about it - now, it's time to let this maybe ride for a few days in the mid 60s, and come next week I'll dump that 3787 in and just wait - on to the next brew!

I very much agree on the debittered .... I use it a lot .... often just for color adjustment ... but I love the smooth roasted character

Great progress, I see you are enjoying this site! Glad you are digging the debittered.

see? some of my tips/advice turn out to be handy once in a while!!

CZs said:

just to update on fermentation - won't be taking hydrometer sample for another week or 2

Did the first 3 days at 65F with the 1762: Thin film, followed by thin white creamy krausen. Smells like cocoa, toast, small warming alcohol in the nose. Faint "some sort of dark fruits" in there.

Pitched 3787 after 3 days. Have had just about 4 days of tan, volcano krausen - blew the plug out and covered the outside of the carboy with brown semi-chunky krausen goo - the stickiest, most active krausen I've had so far. I'm getting bittersweet cocoa with intense date/rummy characteristics. The El Dorado "chewyness" is present in the nose and it would seem that it has a little bitterness to it - i might have even liked a few more IBUs - I don't think it is overly sweet for this style though - I think it is going to dry out enough to negate any overly malt-forward characteristics. I will update on hydrometer readings and aroma/tasting notes again after a while.

Until then, just ordered for two more brews. Going to be making a session Grisette. Then, making Saison in honor of my grandfather and my great uncles we visited in Maine - I learned they use to make a light beer at their grandparents farmhouse back in the 40s and 50s and let it ferment in a kettle out in the sun. With their Scotch-Irish and English backgrounds, I'm going to utilize Ashbourne Mild as the base, with a mix of Optic, Halycon, Marris Otter, and Golden Promise, along with some blonde syrup, and hops present in their area they said they used: Cascade, and then, probably Centennial.

This sounds fantastic. I can't wait to hear how it finishes out. The next beers sound great too. Hard to go wrong with Centennial.

5 gallons is never enough!

Lakewood said:

5 gallons is never enough!

quoted for truthness.

FromZwolle said:

CZs said:

The wife and I had a Grisette at Iron Hill Brewery this past September - we were wondering from tasting if it had some white wine or even champagne yeast mixed in there. Definite peppery and maybe rye spice characteristics (not sure on Rye) in there as well - nice wheat haze and retention. We figured we better get another summer beer going since the upcoming family farmhouse ale won't last as long

I am completely unfamiliar with that style. Care to spare me the google search?

sure - bottom line is that it is a Belgian ale that was brewed for the miners instead of the farmers. Supposedly even lighter than a Saison and contained a witte like grain bill - 15-30% wheat.

French word for "gray" referring to ugly clothing worn bywomen (the grisettes) who served these ales at the end of a work day, plus, color of rock being mined

EDIT: Just to add, you can basically use a Saison yeast or any combination there of - people have aged Grisettes in oak barrels or have used wood chips and - most recently found out that some will add some rye for spiceyness. Overall, sounds like a crisp, dry, sometimes spicy with a nice haze, session ale.

CZs said:

FromZwolle said:

CZs said:

The wife and I had a Grisette at Iron Hill Brewery this past September - we were wondering from tasting if it had some white wine or even champagne yeast mixed in there. Definite peppery and maybe rye spice characteristics (not sure on Rye) in there as well - nice wheat haze and retention. We figured we better get another summer beer going since the upcoming family farmhouse ale won't last as long

I am completely unfamiliar with that style. Care to spare me the google search?

sure - bottom line is that it is a Belgian ale that was brewed for the miners instead of the farmers. Supposedly even lighter than a Saison and contained a witte like grain bill - 15-30% wheat.

French word for "gray" referring to ugly clothing worn bywomen (the grisettes) who served these ales at the end of a work day, plus, color of rock being mined

EDIT: Just to add, you can basically use a Saison yeast or any combination there of - people have aged Grisettes in oak barrels or have used wood chips and - most recently found out that some will add some rye for spiceyness. Overall, sounds like a crisp, dry, sometimes spicy with a nice haze, session ale.

neat. i learned something new about beer.

CZs said:

Just another update - took multiple hydro readings - look like it's teetering between 1.012 and 1.013 - much drier than anticipating but that's ok in my book. Looks like the dual pitch really ate the hell out of the sugars. My best guess is that this thing will get down another few points and I could end up somewhere between 1.007 and 1.010.

As I commented last week, it coming out a little sweeter than desired - the now drier mouth feel has pretty well balanced this out - but, still has the nice chewy dates / dark fruit and chocolate side to it. The flip side to that is that it seems a little "warmer" now but not overpowering. I'll read / sample in another week, wait another and then see if I want to put in secondary for even longer or not before bottling. I could see this being sweet when cold, but roasted cocoa / warming goodness as it warms up. Can't wait to taste this at multiple month intervals and I think I might be getting my hands on some ceramic casks

Ceramic casks eh?

Interested in this.......

Most recent update -

As of 5/4 - down to 1.008 and the malty sweetness faded a little more, still there, but it is more balanced now. It really is amazing what the past week has done. I'd say this week's reading and tasting is a great lesson in patience and what a little time and a few gravity points can do to perceived sweetness / dryness and balance. According the BU/GU numbers, it should be ultra sweet - but, its not. Everyone says it tastes drinkable right now even before carbing. I'll let this sit for a nice round month then rack to secondary for another couple weeks, then bottle and let it age. I'm very pleased with everything thus far. This was the most advanced brew I've done thus far and gives me more confidence playing with temperatures and mixing yeasts for future brews.

Hope everyone is having a good start to their week. I'll update before racking to secondary, right before bottling, then at the 2 month conditioning mark (August)

I'm going to cork 2 ceramic casks - open 1 at a year, open another at maybe 2 years, just to see how that changes it. Should I be weary of aging for 2 years? Thought it would be neat to have notes for year 1 and year 2 to compare.

The rest is going to be in around 30, 22oz bottles.

As far as my solution, I can stick with my usual 4 oz cane, .75 oz turbinado - adjusted for 6 gallons - maybe around 4.5 oz cane, 1.25 ounce turbinado. Any other suggestions for sugar types? - I've read discussions about priming with other sugars or even candi sugar/syrup but not sure I'm up for that. If anything - maybe experience with one or two of the 22 oz bottles.

I would stick with very simple sugars for priming. What's the current abv? I'm assuming its well north of 10%, so ageing 2 years will be no problemmy only concern is with getting it to condition. Are you planning on pitching a champange yeast before bottling or just relying on the fermentation yeast?

CZs said:

Also - kinda' off topic, but, if anyone likes French Onion Soup - I can tell you that if you caramelize the onions with D45 or D90, it makes for a good soup. I used a 1/4 cup of each - makes for a nice sweetness mixed in with heartyness and bite from using Worcestershire and/or steak sauce

Yum

Might want to get a few small sample bottles you can open after 1 or 2 months to make sure its carbing up. You can use something like whitelabs vials for this.

will do - thanks for the inputs

Try to save some ... and let it age for a year .... as good as it seems at 3 months ... it will only get better

sweet... just wanted to make sure you didn't just chug it all down at the 3 month mark.... and miss some awesomeness.... ;)

FromZwolle said:

you should make labels. then you can put a theme on them for when each group will be ready (fall, winter, summer)

that falls under OCD.....

FromZwolle said:

ceannt said:

FromZwolle said:

you should make labels. then you can put a theme on them for when each group will be ready (fall, winter, summer)

that falls under OCD.....

counter it by putting on some of the labels crooked.

Ha!
I dare you to try .... you would have the shakes and break out in sweat just thinking about it!

CZs said:

lol - I have these neat little tags I can print on that hang off the neck - almost like the little greeting card you get with flowers - that way no scratching and peeling off, - I hate doing it, even with water - just another extra step. HOWEVER, I will be make a label for this one since its so extra special and all - I have some 22oz Bottles that I will probably just keep for my bigger brews anyways

Hanging tags are definitely the way to go. Or, just a sharpie on the cap.

I used to stick colored "drafting dots" on the caps to tell batches apart ....
But I haven't seen them for a while ....

when I bottle up this weekend (hopefully - lookin' at you Midwest! me thinks it is time to switch to Annapolis, MoreBeer or Austin) I'll take some pics. In the meantime, to save money, you could print on your favorite colored paper, create the design in illustrator, heck even in word, maybe even a template you can reuse, print it out, trim to bottle width size or make multiple templates on one page and cut as needed, leave a place for a circle or cut on one side and make circle like the Do Not Disturbs on hotel room door

here's a pic that might satisfy you BDS lovers - this is just from a leftover 12oz bottle - still gotta make the labels - lots of IVF stuff going on - we could find out we're pregnant by start of August!

Probably a month or so and this thing is already FANTASTIC. Look at that head! mmmmmmmm - its not even 11 a.m. eastern time and this is my 2nd - HOLY HELL am I buzzzzzzed. If I drink any more I'll need a nap . . .so good - gets cocoa-ier as it

Sweet!

thanks fellers - I couldn't resist as usual - I have 24 22ozers saved and some marked for years 1+ I believe Thanksgiving and Christmas will be the next appropriate time to open one up