HLT-less HERMs
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This discussion was created from comments split from: Does anyone brew electric? How big of an element?.
The idea here is to have a HERMs system without the HLT. Heating water from an wood fired outdoor boiler would be used to heat the strike water, maintain the mash and heat sparge water. I am picturing a counterflow HEX with both heating and cooing inputs on one side with the wort side plumbed for mash recirc or fresh water for strike/sparge. Thinking out loud, I should be able to fly sparge with one pump this way....
Anyway, most of the technical stuff for this is above my paygrade so I'm reaching out to the gurus of HBF for insight."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
chandlerbang said:
Now to control the heat exchanger so i get the right temp at the output.
that's going to be a fair bit tricky.
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:chandlerbang said:
Now to control the heat exchanger so i get the right temp at the output.
that's going to be a fair bit tricky.
Sorta what I was thinking.
Basically I'll have a circulating supply loop of 180*-190* water that I can tap into to run to the HEX. These are the possibilities that I've come up with so far...
Full flow the heating water and meter the wort flow.
-I'm not sure how this could even work. Once the output temp is overshot and the flow stopped, the wort in the HEX will just would equalize at ~185*. No bueno.
Full flow the wort and meter the heating water.
-In this case "full flow" would actually be as fast as safe to recirc the mash.
-This should work for both step mashes and just to maintain mash temp.
The tricky part is how to meter the flow of heating water without completely shutting of that whole loop to the furnace and hot water heater also. Reduced flow to those items during this time would be ok though.
I would like to use this HEX for the strike water also if possible. It would save some extra plumbing, but it isn't a requirement.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
I just had a thought...
I could run a dedicated loop from the domestic hot water heater to the HEX. The water in the hot water heater will be maintained at 185*ish Year round due to the outdoor boiler. I can use a hot water recirc type system (bought or built) to run this loop. The output temp of the product side of the HEX would control the flow of heating water.
I would be able to draw strike water right off of this loop when blended with cold domestic water. With a little plumbing I could probably get the same thermowell in the HEX output to control this as well."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
Sooooo, Lake..... Had a thought...."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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I'm thinking about how to use my equipment to brew in my kitchen."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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Pretend I have an unlimited supply of 175* degree water at hand."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:
Pretend I have an unlimited supply of 175* degree water at hand.
You're thinking that practical considerations limit your indoor brewing?The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Use the hot water and my current heat exchanger to heat the strike water on demand, step mashes, mashout, fly sparge, whatever up to the boil."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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Lakewood said:C_B said:
Pretend I have an unlimited supply of 175* degree water at hand.
You're thinking that practical considerations limit your indoor brewing?
I'll have a 1" line recirculating 400 gallons of 175* water a foot below the kitchen floor. It wouldn't really be pretending.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
C_B said:
Use the hot water and my current heat exchanger to heat the strike water on demand, step mashes, mashout, fly sparge, whatever up to the boil.
The boil is the problem. Electric obviously. But in the kitchen, I could use the range outlet.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
C_B said:
Use the hot water and my current heat exchanger to heat the strike water on demand, step mashes, mashout, fly sparge, whatever up to the boil.
Yeah. It's exactly what we discussed before...except now you want to do it in the kitchen.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:C_B said:
Use the hot water and my current heat exchanger to heat the strike water on demand, step mashes, mashout, fly sparge, whatever up to the boil.
Yeah. It's exactly what we discussed before...except now you want to do it in the kitchen.
I've never talked about boiling with electric. That was always for and HLT."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
The question for you is how legit is using that hot water for that purpose?"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Controlling it without it being expensive as fuck?
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
Probably something else I'll never follow up on."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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Then there's the pump issue. Where to put it."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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And if I make a mess. Yeah that'd be bad."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:
The question for you is how legit is using that hot water for that purpose?
It will work just fine. Though at 175 it will take a while for some of the higher steps.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Lakewood said:C_B said:
The question for you is how legit is using that hot water for that purpose?
It will work just fine. Though at 175 it will take a while for some of the higher steps.
I don't do steps now. So I'm thinking if it'll work for strike water and a lowish flow for mashout....
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?
i would use the software to actively control one valve or the other, not both. Easiest to control would be the heater line, just a simple on-off valve is all that would be needed. i wouldn't go variable unless you have money to burn. you could put an accumulator on the line if you are worried about water hammer. the pump could also be controlled by the software, or just left to run all the time. figure $50-$75 for every additional software control past the first one.
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?
i would use the software to actively control one valve or the other, not both. Easiest to control would be the heater line, just a simple on-off valve is all that would be needed. i wouldn't go variable unless you have money to burn. you could put an accumulator on the line if you are worried about water hammer. the pump could also be controlled by the software, or just left to run all the time. figure $50-$75 for every additional software control past the first one.
Right sorry, control the heating water valve, not both. Manually adjust the wort flow at the beginning then leave it alone. Assume I have all other plumbing needed except the pump and controlled valve. Under 200? Under 100?"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
Yeah I reread my post. I meant variable in place of the on/off valve. Any advantage?"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?
i would use the software to actively control one valve or the other, not both. Easiest to control would be the heater line, just a simple on-off valve is all that would be needed. i wouldn't go variable unless you have money to burn. you could put an accumulator on the line if you are worried about water hammer. the pump could also be controlled by the software, or just left to run all the time. figure $50-$75 for every additional software control past the first one.
Right sorry, control the heating water valve, not both. Manually adjust the wort flow at the beginning then leave it alone. Assume I have all other plumbing needed except the pump and controlled valve. Under 200? Under 100?
Under $10 if you know where to get it... And don't mind a little lead.
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C_B said:
Yeah I reread my post. I meant variable in place of the on/off valve. Any advantage?
Not really with the temps involved.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Dr_Jerryrigger said:C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?
i would use the software to actively control one valve or the other, not both. Easiest to control would be the heater line, just a simple on-off valve is all that would be needed. i wouldn't go variable unless you have money to burn. you could put an accumulator on the line if you are worried about water hammer. the pump could also be controlled by the software, or just left to run all the time. figure $50-$75 for every additional software control past the first one.
Right sorry, control the heating water valve, not both. Manually adjust the wort flow at the beginning then leave it alone. Assume I have all other plumbing needed except the pump and controlled valve. Under 200? Under 100?
Under $10 if you know where to get it... And don't mind a little lead.
On the heating water side? Sure whateves.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:Lakewood said:C_B said:
ha.
ok @cb
at 175 you just need an on-off valve that feeds water from the heater loop up to the heat exchanger and a small pump that you turn on when the valve is open to force the water to run through that loop.
you can regulate the temperature of your strike water and sparge just by adjusting the flow through the inner portion of the heat exchanger. since the jacket will be 175, the hottest you can ever get it 175, which is a bit low, but could work.
Can the on/off valve be automated/controlled in order to recirc during the mash, basically a HERMS? My thought is strike water is usually in the 168* to 175* temp range. But that doesn't account for heat loss to warm the MLT. I'm thinking put 165*ish water in the MLT, let it preheat for a bit, maybe recirc here a bit to get the temp to the actual strike temp, mash in at whatever that ends up being and them let it ramp up to the correct setpoint. I think with 175* heating water we're only talking a couple degrees after mashing in. I don't know, maybe I'll see more heat loss than I think. Seems like it could be fun. What would it take cost/parts to control a variable valve with your brewing software?
i would use the software to actively control one valve or the other, not both. Easiest to control would be the heater line, just a simple on-off valve is all that would be needed. i wouldn't go variable unless you have money to burn. you could put an accumulator on the line if you are worried about water hammer. the pump could also be controlled by the software, or just left to run all the time. figure $50-$75 for every additional software control past the first one.
Right sorry, control the heating water valve, not both. Manually adjust the wort flow at the beginning then leave it alone. Assume I have all other plumbing needed except the pump and controlled valve. Under 200? Under 100?
The pump will probably cost 100, valve another 20.
Then factor in a bit for software.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Soooooo, I'm back around to this. Maybe it'll happen, maybe not. But it seems like I should try? I could test it in the nicer months by pulling the heating water directly off the boiler when brewing outside. That would eliminate the need for the Electric kettle. Actually, I would only need the valve and the software and whatever I need to control the valve with the software. Ima need a parts list Lake."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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one of those for the hot water supply.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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ok, you should buy one of these. just because.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-108GPH-High-temperature-100C-Food-Grade-water-pump-Sous-vide-beer-brewing-/160963311155
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
That's a cheap pump. Huh.
So $50 for the 3/4 valve. All other fittings in the system are 3/4, so that'll do fine.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
C_B said:
That's a cheap pump. Huh.
So $50 for the 3/4 valve. All other fittings in the system are 3/4, so that'll do fine.
you should include a manual valve on the other side of the loop too. that way when you disconnect the brewery equipment you can shut off the water on both sides without effecting your heating system.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
but that can be just a cheapo ball valve from home depot.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Lakewood said:C_B said:
That's a cheap pump. Huh.
So $50 for the 3/4 valve. All other fittings in the system are 3/4, so that'll do fine.
you should include a manual valve on the other side of the loop too. that way when you disconnect the brewery equipment you can shut off the water on both sides without effecting your heating system.
Good call. I gots one of them handy. I think I'll put a valve in the main line between both sides of this loop to throttle the main run. Maybe I'll avoid the pump and wiring for the pump that way.
"On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants -
I'll need a more flexible line for this than 1" pex. I can run that up under the sink. But stubbing it up above the sink won't fly with the misses. I think about that one some more. Basically I need a 3/4" garden hose that will handle 175* water. Right."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:
I'll need a more flexible line for this than 1" pex. I can run that up under the sink. But stubbing it up above the sink won't fly with the misses. I think about that one some more. Basically I need a 3/4" garden hose that will handle 175* water. Right.
silicone tubing
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
i'm assuming the water loop is not pressurized.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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I thought about silicone. I'll have to look up the price point, but that might be the ticket. Correct, it's a nonpressurized and vented system."On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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C_B said:
I thought about silicone. I'll have to look up the price point, but that might be the ticket. Correct, it's a nonpressurized and vented system.
silicone tubing is pretty cheap.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:
ok, you should buy one of these. just because.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-108GPH-High-temperature-100C-Food-Grade-water-pump-Sous-vide-beer-brewing-/160963311155
108gph is crappy. i had my eye on these
http://www.sears.com/mystore365-self-priming-hot-water-pump-high-temp/p-SPM10934251516?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3
which seem to be unavailable now. :(
they were $25, i was thinking of grabbing two.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
ok, you should buy one of these. just because.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-108GPH-High-temperature-100C-Food-Grade-water-pump-Sous-vide-beer-brewing-/160963311155
108gph is crappy. i had my eye on these
http://www.sears.com/mystore365-self-priming-hot-water-pump-high-temp/p-SPM10934251516?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3
which seem to be unavailable now. :(
they were $25, i was thinking of grabbing two.
interesting. ebay had a bunch of different ones. i just posted a link to the first one.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
ok, you should buy one of these. just because.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC12V-108GPH-High-temperature-100C-Food-Grade-water-pump-Sous-vide-beer-brewing-/160963311155
108gph is crappy. i had my eye on these
http://www.sears.com/mystore365-self-priming-hot-water-pump-high-temp/p-SPM10934251516?prdNo=3&blockNo=3&blockType=G3
which seem to be unavailable now. :(
they were $25, i was thinking of grabbing two.
interesting. ebay had a bunch of different ones. i just posted a link to the first one.
i saw those on a couple sites. the reviews said they were just too slow. the ones i linked are also self priming, which would be nice.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
Depends on the application. Most self priming pumps don't handle continuous running against a closed valve.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Lakewood said:
Depends on the application. Most self priming pumps don't handle continuous running against a closed valve.
why run it if the valve is closed. just shut it off when you're not using it.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
Depends on the application. Most self priming pumps don't handle continuous running against a closed valve.
why run it if the valve is closed. just shut it off when you're not using it.
more automation controls required.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
Depends on the application. Most self priming pumps don't handle continuous running against a closed valve.
why run it if the valve is closed. just shut it off when you're not using it.
more automation controls required.
manual.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
Depends on the application. Most self priming pumps don't handle continuous running against a closed valve.
why run it if the valve is closed. just shut it off when you're not using it.
more automation controls required.
manual.
it's hard to be half pregnant.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
