Kötbußer
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Kötbußer is one of the many German Ale styles that fell into obscurity in 1877. Unlike most however, this one had enough written about it for the ingredients to survive. I find these outlawed beers to be intriguing, and really wish more information was available, so that like this one, they can once again be brewed.
    A decoction mash is traditional, and so is a two hour boil. Apparently two versions of this beer were made, a low gravity, session beer, without the munich, and half the molasses and honey, and a stronger “fest beer” version, such as I have represented below.
    I don’t believe that a protein rest is necessary with modern malts, so I recommend a single decoction to mash out, after an hour long mash at 152 degrees. Calculate your sparge volumes to render enough volume for a two hour boil.

    SUMMARY

    (Original Gravity) O.G. = 1.070
    (Final Gravity) F.G. = 1.017
    (Bitterness) IBU = 31
    (Color) SRM = 7
    (Alcohol) APV = 6.8%
    Calories per 12-oz bottle = 226


    For a Five gallon batch:

    Grain:
    Pounds: Type:

    7 Pilsner Malt

    4 Red Wheat Malt

    0.8125 Oatmeal (13-ounces)

    0.5 Munich Malt



    Sugars:
    Pounds: Type:

    0.25 molasses

    0.25 honey





    Hops:
    Variety: Oz.: Boil Time:

    Spalt 1 120

    Saaz 0.5 60

    Spalt 1 5

    Saaz 0.5 5


    German Ale or AltBier yeast such as K-97

    piping_pig
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,569
    This sounds really good
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Oh ... just for historical and geographic reference .... this beer originated in the town of Cotbuss ... in the eastern part of Germany. Once part of Brandonburg. The town was ceded to Prussia in 1701. Not settled by German speaking folks until the 14th century, the town remains the cultural center for the Sorbs ... and many still speak the Sorbian language today ... (and that really is Sorb ... not Serb)
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Oh, it sits on the river Spree ... and was long famed for wool.
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  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,962
    Huh. Simple. It looks delicious?
    What is the advantage of the two hour boil? More than just the pilsner malt?
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  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    C_B said:

    Huh. Simple. It looks delicious?
    What is the advantage of the two hour boil? More than just the pilsner malt?



    I would imagine the long boil will add a bit of caramelizing to the wort giving it another level of flavor.

    A for the simple grainbill, I feel that more often than not, a simple grainbill is all that's needed to produce a great beer, many of my beers are simple yet flavorful recipes. Too many ingredients and things get muddled.
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    The 2 hour boil probably was originally only intended to get to the wanted volume ... but will develop some flavor with caramelzation ....
    Also ... and most important ... a longer, lower boil drives off DMS
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,777
    Correct me if i'm way off, but would it be more accurate to use molasses from beets? I don't know the history of sugar cane and when that started to get shipped around.

    From limited info I've read, beet molasses will yield a different flavor in cooking, so I imagine fermenting it out would only enhance that.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Sugar cane molasses was readily available in Europe starting in the 1600s.... and very popular ... so I would expect that was what they used ......
    But now I want to brew something with the beet stuff .... dang you!
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,777
    ceannt said:

    Sugar cane molasses was readily available in Europe starting in the 1600s.... and very popular ... so I would expect that was what they used ......
    But now I want to brew something with the beet stuff .... dang you!



    me too. :D
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    Thanks for this Ceannt - is the oatmeal traditionally part of this type of brew? What properties (silkyness?) will it bring to the table?
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    CZs said:

    Thanks for this Ceannt - is the oatmeal traditionally part of this type of brew? What properties (silkyness?) will it bring to the table?



    Yes ... the oatmeal is one of the reasons it was outlawed ....
    Gives it some creamyness ... and a little mouth feel to balance the dry crispness ...
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    You got me really excited for older / semi-extinct styles - there is one that had a place in the Western Allegheny (us hillbillies!) beer culture (around where I grew up) a while ago that was a brew that focused on licorice flavoring - use of aniseed - it was called a Pennsylvania Swanky or to the German/PA Dutch - "Schwenke". It is supposed to be a dark ale with low abv. Dang this has got me excited
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    You just made my day buddy
    My mission in life is to revive ... and get others interested in old obscure mostly extinct beer styles!




    :)
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    Haha - glad to be of assistance. Another style that has me interested is the Happe brew - wheat and oats focus and I think its from Belgium? I'm currently looking for more info on that one
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,962
    CZs said:

    Haha - glad to be of assistance. Another style that has me interested is the Happe brew - wheat and oats focus and I think its from Belgium? I'm currently looking for more info on that one


    Wheat and Oats? @ CZ and @theoldman needs to give me some deets right meow!
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    See recipe above .....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    There is another cool old German beer with wheat and oats ...I forget the name ... it was "luminously clear ".... and spiced with corriander .. cloves and cinnamon
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    My notes are at work .... I shall give further details on Tuesday
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  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,962
    ceannt said:

    See recipe above .....



    Wait, this is a recipe thread? :-t
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,777
    C_B said:

    ceannt said:

    See recipe above .....



    Wait, this is a recipe thread? :-t


    a thread got derailed? ON THE INTERNET!!!!!! 8-}

    C_B
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    ceannt said:

    There is another cool old German beer with wheat and oats ...I forget the name ... it was "luminously clear ".... and spiced with corriander .. cloves and cinnamon



    OK, I found my notes... I added this to the "old obscure beer styles" thread... it was called Potsdamer Bier
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Ok boys.... I have pretty much made up my mind to brew the Kötbußer next...
    I think it would be awesome to sip sitting on the back porch watching the fireflies...
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    When's this puppy happenin'? Can't wait to read the notes! And yes - fireflies are drinkin-time bugs!

    Out here in deeze parts, dem' fireflies means itsa gettin' warm. Sorry - not sure if that was hillbilly or Gungan. Hopefully it read like the former.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Ha!
    I will maybe be brewing this in a couple weeks
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    saw my first fireflies of the year last night...
    Can't wait to get this brewed!
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I'm thinking this will be the first batch in my "new" fermenter....
    (yeah, I've had the dang thing since fall, and am still using the twenty some year old one....)
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    I got a brew burner that has been sitting for a couple days and unfortunately won't be used until July - summer is picking up already - I hate when June-August flies by
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    What you said .... why is it winter passes by as slow as sap dripping down a tree trunk ..... and summer is gone like a fart in a whirlwind?
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    or like a fart in a frying pan, squirrels on go-karts, or, my favorite - the barking spider or squishing a duck . . .but that is the actual fart

    as far as the speed of a fart - hmmm, the sound of a fart - depending on if you're standing or sitting, and the particular surface - that could change the speed

    wait, what?
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    CZs said:

    or like a fart in a frying pan, squirrels on go-karts, or, my favorite - the barking spider or squishing a duck . . .but that is the actual fart

    as far as the speed of a fart - hmmm, the sound of a fart - depending on if you're standing or sitting, and the particular surface - that could change the speed

    wait, what?



    gotta love how threads degenerate......
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,569
    ceannt said:

    CZs said:

    or like a fart in a frying pan, squirrels on go-karts, or, my favorite - the barking spider or squishing a duck . . .but that is the actual fart

    as far as the speed of a fart - hmmm, the sound of a fart - depending on if you're standing or sitting, and the particular surface - that could change the speed

    wait, what?



    gotta love how threads degenerate......


    back on point. go make this beer.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Lakewood said:

    ceannt said:

    CZs said:

    or like a fart in a frying pan, squirrels on go-karts, or, my favorite - the barking spider or squishing a duck . . .but that is the actual fart

    as far as the speed of a fart - hmmm, the sound of a fart - depending on if you're standing or sitting, and the particular surface - that could change the speed

    wait, what?



    gotta love how threads degenerate......


    back on point. go make this beer.


    Its up next .....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Can't wait to brew!
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I should go ahead and order the ingredients .....
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,777
    ceannt said:

    I should go ahead and order the ingredients .....



    you should have already done that. then you could brew tomorrow.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    FromZwolle said:

    ceannt said:

    I should go ahead and order the ingredients .....



    you should have already done that. then you could brew tomorrow.


    Tomorrow is out ...... have way too much **** to do .... get vehicles inspected an' such ....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I need to go pick up some cheap honey for this.... with only 2oz.... I'm not going to use the high dollar stuff...
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Ingredients officially ordered :)

    C_B
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    really wish my stuff would ship..... I am starting to froth at the mouth wanting to brew this.....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    just got the e-mail.... my stuff has shipped! yay! should get here Friday.... and I can't brew this weekend... bummer.....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    So.... got this brewed!!!!! yay!!!
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    If I ever brew this again... I am going to put an ounce or so of Carafa III in it... just to add a bit of color. With all the wheat and oats, it has a distinctly grey hue ... similar to a Grissette... not overly appetizing to me...
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    The mash smelled like heaven though
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Oh.... anybody decide to brew this, I recommend rice hulls... it drained real slow..... I mean sloooooooooow...

    I can't remember ever using them before, but in this case they would be worth it
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Fermentation is nice and vigorous ... not a lot of krausen though
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  • CZsCZs
    Posts: 228
    Hey Ceannt - how did this one turn out - did the grey hue dissipate through fermentation?
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    CZs said:

    Hey Ceannt - how did this one turn out - did the grey hue dissipate through fermentation?



    Turned out really well. Looks like a normal German wheat beer, with a light yellow color, but not as cloudy. Very complex, and yet subtle. I really liked it.
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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