Old obscure beer styles (Help)
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    This was inspired by CZs’s write up on the Grisette…
    There are hundreds of beer styles that have fallen into obscurity… here are a few that I would love to know more about, and can’t find any meaningful information on. (also a good example of just how unimaginative modern commercial brewers are when it comes to describing beers that differ substantially from classic styles) Many of these are from Germany, and vanished in 1877 when Germany was unified. (“Death by Reinheitsgebot”). Most of ‘em I got out of a book that I had brief access to in a University Library reference section (before I was kicked out), and the names caught my interest and were scribbled down….

    ***If anybody has information on these brews….. please, please… add it here!***

    Or, if you have any to add, please do so!

    Note: these are styles, not brand names….

    DicktBier (from around Danzig)
    Hansla
    Hosenmilch (literally means pants milk… ???)
    BitterBier (from around the Magdeburg area)
    Blak
    Kater (cat beer?)
    Puss (OK????)
    Zitzenmille (this translates to “thousand tits” I really want to know what this one is about)
    Todtenkopf (skull and crossbones??)
    Kotbusser
    Seef (from Belgium)
    Zoeg (also Belgian)
    Zottegem (a sour? Beer from Belgium)
    Hogen Mogen (English.. spiced??)
    Stingo (also English… strong??)
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  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    If I remember correctly this is still brewed by Scandinavian home brewers occasionally, but the Gotlandsdrika is an ale brewed with Juniper boughs and berries, traditionally brewed in Gotland, an island in the middle of the Baltic sea. I know there is an article on this style in BYO (but I can't remember the issue date at this moment). It seems interesting. I would like to try brewing a Gotlandsdrika towards the end of the summer when the Juniper in the area is rampant.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Evan_B said:

    If I remember correctly this is still brewed by Scandinavian home brewers occasionally, but the Gotlandsdrika is an ale brewed with Juniper boughs and berries, traditionally brewed in Gotland, an island in the middle of the Baltic sea. I know there is an article on this style in BYO (but I can't remember the issue date at this moment). It seems interesting. I would like to try brewing a Gotlandsdrika towards the end of the summer when the Juniper in the area is rampant.



    Yep. I borrowed heavily from this one when I developed my "Viking Beer"... the Juniper is delightful... but the resins in it kill head.....
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  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    Dampfbier is rare, but is still sorta on the radar screen

    Could be added to the list though


    Oh, one more thing.... please never ever invite me over for a mug of pants milk. :D
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    How bout a proper roggenbier?
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  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    azscoob said:

    Dampfbier is rare, but is still sorta on the radar screen

    Could be added to the list though


    Oh, one more thing.... please never ever invite me over for a mug of pants milk. :D



    Fine. Guess ill find someone else to invite.
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    I kinda want to name my first born Hogen Mogen.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    azscoob said:




    Oh, one more thing.... please never ever invite me over for a mug of pants milk. :D



    Mug? I think you are supposed to drink that straight from the ... uh... "bottle"
    ;)
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    don't forget Kvass. not a beer per se, but close.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828

    don't forget Kvass. not a beer per se, but close.



    Oh yeah .... I forgot all about Kvass .... it deserves a thread of its own :)
    Lemme dig out my notes tonight (if I can remember) I even have a recipe ....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Kvass just might make the best lawnmower "beer" ever ....
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  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,617
    Theres actually a brewery in Philladelphia?? i think that makes traditional Kvass. The owner wrote a book about opening a nano-brewery.
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  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    Kvass, hmm I could make that in a jiff, and would indeed go well in the summer heat, but what yeast, a hefe? Or a simple English ale yeast?
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,617
    azscoob said:

    Kvass, hmm I could make that in a jiff, and would indeed go well in the summer heat, but what yeast, a hefe? Or a simple English ale yeast?



    i believe it's traditionally fermented with bread yeast
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,617
    like as in the remaining viable yeast in the bread that you put in the drink.

    but i could be wrong about that.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    Lakewood said:

    like as in the remaining viable yeast in the bread that you put in the drink.

    but i could be wrong about that.


    Thought you toasted up the bread first, @ceannt will know, he has been making kvass since the last supper with the original cast.
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,617
    azscoob said:

    Lakewood said:

    like as in the remaining viable yeast in the bread that you put in the drink.

    but i could be wrong about that.


    Thought you toasted up the bread first, @ceannt will know, he has been making kvass since the last supper with the original cast.


    yeah, i just did a little googling, toast the bread, use a lacto culture
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    azscoob said:

    Lakewood said:

    like as in the remaining viable yeast in the bread that you put in the drink.

    but i could be wrong about that.


    Thought you toasted up the bread first, @ceannt will know, he has been making kvass since the last supper with the original cast.


    Yes rye bread (stale but not moldy) is lightly toasted ...
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Other ingredients for Kvass are wheat and buckwheat flours .... raisins and peppermint are also common
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Making beer from bread is one of the most ancient of methods .... goes back before Gilgamesh .... (and no ... I didn't know him personally)
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    An English variant on this kind of small beer was common up until the 1890s
    The third runnings of a pale ale were drained over stale bread and allowed to sit overnight .... "grout" was then added. After a day of fermentation it was bottled. After a week it was consumed.

    Earlier versions skipped the third runnings and just used boiling water ... flour and often egg whites were added
    salt was typically added to both
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Grout:
    Kind of like a sourdough starter .... flour and yeast.... allowed to sour.
    often had ground corriander... ginger..and other stuff mixed in too
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Potsdamer Bier:

    made with a high percentage of wheat, and a touch of oats, this beer was "luminously clear" and had an amber "tinge". I suspect this was made with Alt yeast.
    It was spiced with coriander, cloves and cinnamon.
    No mention that I can find of an actual grain bill. I figure Pilsner Malt... about 30-40% wheat... 10-15% oats and maybe a little more than a touch of Munich.
    With the spices, I would think it was hopped on the light side... probably just a bittering addition. Gravity, I assume would be in the 1.045 to 1.050 range.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Oh, the Potsdamer was brewed around Berlin... in the 1700's
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  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,467
    ceannt said:

    Potsdamer Bier:

    made with a high percentage of wheat, and a touch of oats, this beer was "luminously clear" and had an amber "tinge". I suspect this was made with Alt yeast.
    It was spiced with coriander, cloves and cinnamon.
    No mention that I can find of an actual grain bill. I figure Pilsner Malt... about 30-40% wheat... 10-15% oats and maybe a little more than a touch of Munich.
    With the spices, I would think it was hopped on the light side... probably just a bittering addition. Gravity, I assume would be in the 1.045 to 1.050 range.



    I might take a stab at this. Go light on the spices. Be good for a warm summer evening.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    C_B said:

    ceannt said:

    Potsdamer Bier:

    made with a high percentage of wheat, and a touch of oats, this beer was "luminously clear" and had an amber "tinge". I suspect this was made with Alt yeast.
    It was spiced with coriander, cloves and cinnamon.
    No mention that I can find of an actual grain bill. I figure Pilsner Malt... about 30-40% wheat... 10-15% oats and maybe a little more than a touch of Munich.
    With the spices, I would think it was hopped on the light side... probably just a bittering addition. Gravity, I assume would be in the 1.045 to 1.050 range.



    I might take a stab at this. Go light on the spices. Be good for a warm summer evening.


    Sweet .....
    If you do ... start a recipe build thread!
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Here is one for the ambitious ...
    Lichtenhainer

    Had a bit of sour from lactic acid ... and was made entirely from rauchmalt
    hopping was low .. say 20 to 25 IBUs
    Gravity around 1.045

    Later versions used one third wheat malt

    Anybody up for a sour mash?
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  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,617
    Yay 2+ day brew day!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,467
    ceannt said:

    Here is one for the ambitious ...
    Lichtenhainer

    Had a bit of sour from lactic acid ... and was made entirely from rauchmalt
    hopping was low .. say 20 to 25 IBUs
    Gravity around 1.045

    Later versions used one third wheat malt

    Anybody up for a sour mash?


    No.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    C_B said:

    ceannt said:

    Here is one for the ambitious ...
    Lichtenhainer

    Had a bit of sour from lactic acid ... and was made entirely from rauchmalt
    hopping was low .. say 20 to 25 IBUs
    Gravity around 1.045

    Later versions used one third wheat malt

    Anybody up for a sour mash?


    No.


    wimp...
    wouldn't even have to sour the entire mash.... just a couple pounds or so, then add to the main mash right after the first runnings are drained
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    might even be able to get the "2%" lactic acid level with acidulated malt.... but I have no clue how to calculate that stuff....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I still think that there should be some kind of scale... along the lines of IBU for sourness
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    OK... here is another one for the adventureous... from Holland

    Dutch Black Buckwheat Beer

    Barley, Wheat, oats... and a large percentage of Buckwheat... apparently everything but the oats and buckwheat were roasted... low on hops.. and "thick"... so mash temps would be on the high side, and original gravity should be stupid high.

    Apparently the Dutch used a lot of buckwheat in brewing back around 1700....
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    ceannt said:

    OK... here is another one for the adventureous... from Holland

    Dutch Black Buckwheat Beer

    Barley, Wheat, oats... and a large percentage of Buckwheat... apparently everything but the oats and buckwheat were roasted... low on hops.. and "thick"... so mash temps would be on the high side, and original gravity should be stupid high.

    Apparently the Dutch used a lot of buckwheat in brewing back around 1700....



    neat. if i ever come across buckwheat for a good price, i'll give it a go.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828

    ceannt said:

    OK... here is another one for the adventureous... from Holland

    Dutch Black Buckwheat Beer

    Barley, Wheat, oats... and a large percentage of Buckwheat... apparently everything but the oats and buckwheat were roasted... low on hops.. and "thick"... so mash temps would be on the high side, and original gravity should be stupid high.

    Apparently the Dutch used a lot of buckwheat in brewing back around 1700....



    neat. if i ever come across buckwheat for a good price, i'll give it a go.


    Cool... you're on your own as far as the recipe goes.... the above is all the information I have on it
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  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    found an neat site about dutch brewing history.

    http://witteklavervier.nl/en/history/dutch-beer-history

    it's neat stuff.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Awesome! Now that's what I be talking about
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I have never really delved into Dutch brews ... what I found was in an English text ... and thought it was interesting
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I find it fascinating that beer .... once the drink of choice in what is now England fell out of favor .... between the silly Normans taking over ... and the medieval warming period making it possible to grow excellent wine grapes there ....
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Then between the flood of immigrants ... and the "little ice age"... beer once again became the drink of choice
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828

    The recent discussion in the “place of magical enchantment” about Bock got me thinking again about this oldie… Erntebier.
    This was a beer intended to be drank by farm workers during the harvest. Fairly strong, with original gravities around 1.050 to 1.060, it was dark, rich, and considered “motivational” for the workers. IBUs for this were very high for a dark German beer, around 40. Common in the 1600s, it now is extinct. (there are a lot of modern breweries that make “harvest beers” today, but the name is more of a marketing tool and they bear no resemblance to the original style). It was an ale, but was aged under cool temperatures.
    I have long theorized that this beer was the one that Bock came from. I think it very possible that the guys in Einbeck may well have used the Erntebier grain bill…. Dropped the little bit of wheat that probably was in it to conform with the goofy laws imposed after the unification of Germany… lowered the hopping rate…. and used the new-fangled Lager yeast to make the first Einbeckbiers… that became known as Bock.
    To make one of these…. I think a Bock grain bill… (can you say Munich malt…) with the addition of some wheat, and/or chocolate wheat, to the tune of 20 or 25% or so…. and Noble hops to an IBU of 40, maybe a tad higher… This may have even had late addition hops to it, so I was thinking a couple of ounces of Spalt in a 5 gallon batch at 5-minutes… A good Alt yeast would be perfect. Ferment on the cool side…. and bulk age at cool temps… basically Lager it (even though it’s an ale). A decoction mash is of course mandatory.
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    OK ... I convinced myself ... ima brew this come cold weather
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  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Have a recipe all formulated .... I shall post it here soon!
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