Apple cinnamon beer recipe help
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I need your creative help. Our local brew club has a tournament every year, the Iron Brewer. A take on a TV show apparently. It. Is a bracket format and you are paired against one brewer in each round and given an ingredient you must use. You don't have to use all of it, you can also use more. I drew a can of cinnamon spiced apples. So I'm thinking a cinnamon apple spice beer. Maybe a wheat beer. I've looked online, found a few, but wanted your input. I have to have it ready in two months for this round. Here is one recipe, seems a fair starting point. I am not sure where to add the can of apples, maybe in the secondary or primary? Not sure if it should be boiled or not. I am not sure if I would add cider or not either. Probably not.

    For a 5.5 gal batch (before cider):
    OG (without cider): 1.057, IBU: 19
    4.0 lb Pils
    3.5 lb Munich Light or Vienna
    0.75 lb Biscuit
    0.4 lb Honey Malt
    0.5 lb Caramel 60
    0.2 lb Caramel 15
    0.15 lb Caramel 120

    In boil:
    0.25 tsp clove
    0.50 tsp allspice
    1.00 tsp cinnamon
    0.33 cup molasses

    Add 1/2 g apple cider, boiled down from 1 gallon into primary after initial fermentation slowed.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    I would be tempted to go with a higher percentage of Vienna ....
    Don't boil the cider .... add it right in ... camden if you want but the pectins will be horrid if you boil it ...
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Also.... you will have better luck with the spices if you add them later ... at bottling even .... put them in water that has cooled a little from boiling ... let them steep for a half hour... run it through a coffee filter and pour the liquid in.
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Where would you recommend adding the can(s) of cinnamon apples? I should probably cut the cinnamon back on the spice list if it is already in the apples.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    "secondary."

    as in dump them in the fermenter once the wort is pretty much fermented out.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I don't use a secondary, but could. Would you dump into fermentor or rack onto them?
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Either rack onto them in secondary ... or just dump em gently into primary (how I would do it)
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    Benvarine said:

    I don't use a secondary, but could. Would you dump into fermentor or rack onto them?



    ceannt said:

    just dump em gently into primary (how I would do it)



    yep, this.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    FWIW, i agree.

    i would add the apples after the primary ferment (about 3 days), but i would suggest racking to a secondary AFTER the fruit has had a chance to ferment (about 1 week).

    Also, i would crush the hell out of the apples. mash em up good so you get as much out of them as possible flavor wise. and i would probably hold off on the cider.

    the can of apples should be totally clean/sanitary, so no need to boil them at all. i would take some sanitizer and clean/sanitize your blender, then add about of cup of fermented beer, or some boiled water, then the can of apples, and blend away. dump that into the fermenter and you should see it spring back to life. rouse the yeast a bit if you need to.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Eat the apples while you mix up a batch of hard cider, then drop a cinnamon stick in the primary. done and done.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    C_dubbs said:

    Eat the apples while you mix up a batch of hard cider, then drop a cinnamon stick in the primary. done and done.



    b-(
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    To that end I dropped two cinnamon sticks in a keg of mediocre apple Graff. I was amazed by how much cinnamon flavor scale out and how much it changed the whole profile of the graff.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Why am I eating the apples in this process? I'm confused.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    Benvarine said:

    Why am I eating the apples in this process? I'm confused.



    #-o
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    Benvarine said:

    Why am I eating the apples in this process? I'm confused.



    :@)
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    Why am I eating the apples in this process? I'm confused.



    So they are used during the beer production. Easier than trying to figure out when to add them.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Nice, so I'll send in my beer along with a description of the apples and how they tasted. Or brew and oatmeal stout, serve over vanilla ice cream with warmed cinnamon apples. Not sure if that will fly.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    Nice, so I'll send in my beer along with a description of the apples and how they tasted.

    If the judge has any sense of humor you'll win.
    Benvarine said:

    Or brew and oatmeal stout, serve over vanilla ice cream with warmed cinnamon apples. Not sure if that will fly.


    Dude. If that doesn't fly, I'll come to the judges house and cut him. That. Sounds. Delicious. In fact, I want some right now. Like RIGHT NOW!
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    =))
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    make sure there aren't any stabilizers like potassium sorbate in those apples before you dump them in.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606

    make sure there aren't any stabilizers like potassium sorbate in those apples before you dump them in.



    What if there are? I have to use them. I don't recall. Isn't there a natural preservative.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    Benvarine said:

    make sure there aren't any stabilizers like potassium sorbate in those apples before you dump them in.



    What if there are? I have to use them. I don't recall. Isn't there a natural preservative.


    if it has them in there, just add sparingly to the secondary knowing that it will essentially backsweeten the beer, not ferment. if you have ever had ephemera beers, that's how they do that. they are strange fruit beers with hint of sour to them. wife loves them
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    make sure there aren't any stabilizers like potassium sorbate in those apples before you dump them in.



    What if there are? I have to use them.

    And you asked me "why eat the apples?"
    Benvarine said:

    I don't recall. Isn't there a natural preservative.


    Ascorbic acid is ok.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    pretty much any "acid" is fine
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Yea it is.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828

    pretty much any "acid" is fine



    Just don't drop acid before you brew ..... it will not end well .........
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    So here is what I have. I had to disconnect my desktop for some in home moving so can't scale this. Can I get some help from one of you Beersmith chaps? It is for a five gallon batch, starting boil 7.5 g and doing BIAB. I want to make an 8g batch and split in into two four gallon batches and use the canned apples in one and canned apples and cider in the other. I can't scale this myself, I'm both lazy and ignorant to how to do it.

    4 lbs pils
    4 lbs Vienna
    .75 biscuit
    .4 honey malt
    .5 caramel 60
    .2 caramel 20
    .15 caramel 120
    19 IBU's of hallertau 5% whole leaf at 60 min
    Safale 05

    The rest of the ingredients I don't know how to incorporate and basically don't care, it's going into the primary after a few days. Probably a spiced beer for style. Could be fruit, could be both.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Nevermind. I had to come home with a sick kid today, hooked it all back up.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    When are you going to brew this?
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Brewing today. In a few hours.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    Brewing today. In a few hours.


    Yay!


    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Actually postponed until tomorrow. Switched to English 04 yeast. I am leaving town Tuesday until Thursday so I am going to have to wait until then to add the apples. Not ideal, but its what I have. I'm actually leaving town with Fry's wife. Let the TKT begin.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    Actually postponed until tomorrow. Switched to English 04 yeast. I am leaving town Tuesday until Thursday so I am going to have to wait until then to add the apples. Not ideal, but its what I have. I'm actually leaving town with Fry's wife. Let the TKT begin.



    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Benvarine said:

    Actually postponed until tomorrow. Switched to English 04 yeast. I am leaving town Tuesday until Thursday so I am going to have to wait until then to add the apples. Not ideal, but its what I have. I'm actually leaving town with Fry's wife. Let the TKT begin.



    Leave town with my wife instead ..... please?
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    Benvarine said:

    Actually postponed until tomorrow. Switched to English 04 yeast. I am leaving town Tuesday until Thursday so I am going to have to wait until then to add the apples. Not ideal, but its what I have. I'm actually leaving town with Fry's wife. Let the TKT begin.



    more sticker pictures!
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Checked gravity today, 4 days past pitching. No activity at all. Gravity down to 1.010. That was fast. Started at 1.052.

    I purée'd the apples and added one can per 4 gallon batch. I could not find cider so opted for apple juice instead. I added one can frozen juice concentrate plus one can of water to one Carboy. I swirled both up and put back in fermentation chamber.

    I'll add the spices when bottling and will determine how much based on tasting first. The apples had spice in them already.

    The beer tasted okay, a little plain, not much body. I hope the spice will help. I wish it had a little more mouthfeel, but don't think I can fix it now.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    Benvarine said:

    Checked gravity today, 4 days past pitching. No activity at all. Gravity down to 1.010. That was fast. Started at 1.052.

    I purée'd the apples and added one can per 4 gallon batch. I could not find cider so opted for apple juice instead. I added one can frozen juice concentrate plus one can of water to one Carboy. I swirled both up and put back in fermentation chamber.

    I'll add the spices when bottling and will determine how much based on tasting first. The apples had spice in them already.

    The beer tasted okay, a little plain, not much body. I hope the spice will help. I wish it had a little more mouthfeel, but don't think I can fix it now.



    I wonder if the apple sweetness will give it a bit of body.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I hope so. We'll see I guess. Any other suggestions?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    1/4# of maltodextrin?
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    that'll boost the body without doing much to the flavor.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    How long would it have to be in there? Or do you mean next time?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    Benvarine said:

    How long would it have to be in there? Or do you mean next time?



    any amount of time. the yeast shouldn't be able to do anything to it. it's normally added late in the boil, so i'd probably pull a pint and boil the maltodextrin for a minute or two before adding it into either the primary or bottling bucket/keg.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Got it. I'll wait to see how the apples work out. Since I have two batches and time, I can experiment. Thanks
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    a tiny bit of acid might give it a little zing too. since you are making a weird beer/wine hybrid thing, it will cancel out the flatness of body you are describing. easy to test too, just pull a little and sprinkle some acid in, then taste.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    write down how much you add so you can scale up if you like it.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    I bet that would help bring out the apple flavor.

    What kind of acid would you use?
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    i would use malic acid, but a regular acid blend available at all the homebrew stores would work fine.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    How does that flavor compare to what you get from an acidulated malt? I've never really played with acid additions in my beers, but I plan on trying it with my next Wit.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    i have no experience with using that stuff. i use lots of acid in my wines though. its very important to make an excellent mead, but you can still maek a god mead without it
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    So I added the apples to the one and apples and juice concentrate to the other. The no juice one tasted bland, nothing special. The juice one tasted more like apples, but subtle, finished at 1.006. I added the spices and molasses to the keg and kegged that beer. The no juice one is still in carboy. I'm thinking of going more radical. Add two cans of juice concentrate, spices, maybe some additional canned apples like before. I might need to add more yeast. Any suggestions? I could add the maltodextrine like someone suggested I think. I'll look back and see. I could go for more mouthfeel. I'll probably hold on adding spice until I see how the other one tastes in a couple days.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    you shouldn't need to add more yeast, maybe add the stuff and if nothing happens in 4 days, add some more. the lack of mouthfeel might be due to low acid. pull a little out and sprinkle in some acid blend, see if that doesn't fix it straight away.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I checked the Kegged stuff today, not much spice flavor if any, good apple nose however. I added a very small amount of acid blend to a glass and tasted, added more, etc. A little goes a long way, it was obvious when it was too much. I'll probably add 1/8 tsp to the entire thing and taste and add as necessary. Do you think the spices will come through more in time, or is this all I can expect? I steeped for 30 and then added to beer when I Kegged.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    Benvarine said:

    I checked the Kegged stuff today, not much spice flavor if any, good apple nose however. I added a very small amount of acid blend to a glass and tasted, added more, etc. A little goes a long way, it was obvious when it was too much. I'll probably add 1/8 tsp to the entire thing and taste and add as necessary. Do you think the spices will come through more in time, or is this all I can expect? I steeped for 30 and then added to beer when I Kegged.



    flavor development through aging is weird to say the least. what will actually happen to the flavor depends on the conditions in which it's being aged, and what the current flavor profile is. for example, if the spice flavor is there, but it's being hidden by some other flavor, the spice may become more forward if time, if the aging process causes the masking flavor to diminish. whereas if the spice flavor already pretty much hidden, and the aging causes a new flavor to be introduced, then the spice could disappear altogether.

    since the beer has been cleared and kegged, i wouldn't expect a any substantial change to occur in the flavor in the near term. so i would make your tweaks, little by little and get it where you want it. then store it away cold until comp time.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Here are the spices I added.
    0.25 tsp clove
    0.50 tsp allspice
    0.50 tsp cinnamon
    0.33 cup molasses
    Any thoughts on ramping those up? Originally I was going to add 1.00 tsp of cinnamon, but have heard such bad things about too much so scaled back. I'm going with the extra in the next batch.

    It is turning out to be more of an apple beer than an apple cinnamon beer. Baked apple pie is what I was looking for. Oh well.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I added two jars apple juice concentrate and a can of cinnamon apples used for pie filing. I made the above spice mix tea, but used a cinnamon stick and maple syrup instead of molasses. Steeped for about 15, pulled out stick and dumped that, apples and juice in empty Carboy and racked beer on it. Then added Wyeast: 5526 | Brettanomyces lambicus™. I raised the temp to 68 and see what happens. I didn't want two batches of apple tasting beer with no complexity. The other one I'll use in the contest, not likely beat out the other guy, but we'll see. The sour I'll try in a few months.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    heres my recco, if the non-soured one isn't really killer there isn't much to lose so its worth a try: you can split it if you don't want to risk the whole thing.

    blast the comp one with a little mixture of molasses, cinnamon and pulverized canned apples, boil it good then blend it until it is litteraly pure liquid. add it to some cleared wort or green beer in a secondary. mix it up real good then let it settle out.

    it should add some body and complexity.

    if you split off about 2.5 gals, i'd probably make about 1 cup of this mixture, a can of apples, maybe 1/6cup of molasses and one or two sticks of fresh cinnamon in the boiling mixture. you might throw in a little all-spice for schnitzengiggles.

    this mixture shouldn't really have much to offer in the way of fermentables, it's just a flava flav boost and some mouthfeel to write home about. so adding it, mixing it and letting the solids settle out in a week should be sufficient.

    then taste the wonderful world of spiced beer.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    The comp one is already kegged. Probably too late right? I had pulverized apples in it, also added the spice and molasses mix in when kegged. It is real apple-ly flavored, but little in the way of spice.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    Benvarine said:

    The comp one is already kegged. Probably too late right? I had pulverized apples in it, also added the spice and molasses mix in when kegged. It is real apple-ly flavored, but little in the way of spice.



    skip the apples, mix up 1/4 cup of molasses, add 1/4 cup of water, boil it with some cinnamon sticks and all-spice. (and any other spices you want). boil it for 20-30 minutes.

    then just pour the liquid in (strain out all of the solids with a very fine tea filter or something) might want to filter it a few time to make sure the arent any chunks.

    the liquid wont have any sediment so it can go straight into the keg.

    It will foam up when you pour it into a carbed keg, not a big deal. just have the lid in already, just cock it up to the side to pour in the flava boosta. close the lid as quickly as possible then roll or shake the keg a bit to get it all mixed up.

    let it set a few days before you give it a taste. it should be much richer.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Lakewood said:

    Benvarine said:

    The comp one is already kegged. Probably too late right? I had pulverized apples in it, also added the spice and molasses mix in when kegged. It is real apple-ly flavored, but little in the way of spice.



    skip the apples, mix up 1/4 cup of molasses, add 1/4 cup of water, boil it with some cinnamon sticks and all-spice. (and any other spices you want). boil it for 20-30 minutes.

    then just pour the liquid in (strain out all of the solids with a very fine tea filter or something) might want to filter it a few time to make sure the arent any chunks.

    the liquid wont have any sediment so it can go straight into the keg.

    It will foam up when you pour it into a carbed keg, not a big deal. just have the lid in already, just cock it up to the side to pour in the flava boosta. close the lid as quickly as possible then roll or shake the keg a bit to get it all mixed up.

    let it set a few days before you give it a taste. it should be much richer.


    I have done similar additions to carbed beers. It will foam quickly and violently. Be prepared to pop that lid back down fast.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    nucleation points are fun!!!
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969

    nucleation points are fun!!!



    Fizzy volcano!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    It really isn't all that bad... Just dump and cap. There's a little delay, so as long as you don't hesitate you can do it pretty cleanly. Don't pour carefuly... It doesn't help. Just dump it in as fast as possible and close it up.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Lakewood said:

    It really isn't all that bad... Just dump and cap. There's a little delay, so as long as you don't hesitate you can do it pretty cleanly. Don't pour carefuly... It doesn't help. Just dump it in as fast as possible and close it up.


    Yes. All of this.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I won! Onto the next round. Thanks for all your help guys. I appreciate it. Spicy pepper beer next. New posts in the spicy pepper beer thread.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,969
    awesome, congrats!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,619
    Benvarine said:

    I won! Onto the next round. Thanks for all your help guys. I appreciate it. Spicy pepper beer next. New posts in the spicy pepper beer thread.


    Awesome!
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Benvarine said:

    I won! Onto the next round. Thanks for all your help guys. I appreciate it. Spicy pepper beer next. New posts in the spicy pepper beer thread.



    Sweet!
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,695
    congrats!
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Thanks guys, couldn't do it without you.