Why won't this work once? - Types and Methods Discussions on Home Brew Forums

C_B

Well?
Sure it's missing a lot of things normal to this setup, but all I want to do on Thursday's brew day is recirc while I'm cooling with the IC to increase efficiency. Then pump to the fermenters.

scoob

Looks very similar to my setup, I have an immersion chiller as well, I pull from the bottom valve, and I have a whirlpool pipe soldered to the immersion chiller, I drop the IC In to sanitize in the last few minutes of the boil, I connect the pump inlet to the bottom valve and the outlet to the whirlpool pipe on my chiller. And open the valve on the keggle, then open up the valve on the pump, power it up and start sanitizing the pump, when all is chilled to pitching temp I shut the pump valve and disconnect from the whirlpool pipe, pop on my wort aerator attachment and start filling the carboys.

I have the pump mounted to a board that sits on the ground, the keggle just stays on the burner stand. I use a small pond pump to run ice water through the IC as well because the water out here never gets below upper 80s most all winter, summer it's retarded hot water

Thym

It'll work once no problem. In my opinion the difference between brew systems gets down to 3 things.
1. Reliability
2. Ease of use
3. Efficiency

It costs a lot to have all three. You can get any two for next to nothing. The hardest part of reliabililty is sanitation. A system that is hard to clean will work well for a few batches, then everything goes to shit.
In the case of your proposed system, I'd say you have something you can pretty reliably clean and sanitize, efficiency should be what you expect, but from an ease of use perspective you'll set it up, run it and probably never want to use it in that specific arrangement again.

BTW - when recircing, you will want to draw wort from the very top of the kettle and only slowly recirc it, otherwise you will kick up all of your trub and chop it up so fine it will stay in suspension forever, yielding cloudy beer.

scoob

Lakewood said:
It'll work once no problem. In my opinion the difference between brew systems gets down to 3 things.
1. Reliability
2. Ease of use
3. Efficiency

It costs a lot to have all three. You can get any two for next to nothing. The hardest part of reliabililty is sanitation. A system that is hard to clean will work well for a few batches, then everything goes to shit.
In the case of your proposed system, I'd say you have something you can pretty reliably clean and sanitize, efficiency should be what you expect, but from an ease of use perspective you'll set it up, run it and probably never want to use it in that specific arrangement again.

BTW - when recircing, you will want to draw wort from the very top of the kettle and only slowly recirc it, otherwise you will kick up all of your trub and chop it up so fine it will stay in suspension forever, yielding cloudy beer.

This is sound advice, I recirc from the bottom, but way off to one side, and as lake stated, recirc slowly, my valve is hardly open, it took a few batches to get the whirlpool down so there was a trub cone at the end instead of dispersed in the beer

C_B

Definitely a one time deal. I don't have the components for disconnects yet and I'm not sure exactly how I want to place/mount the pump.
Draw from the top, eh? I never thought about that... I'll consider a port specifically for that then. I thought if I whirlpool at fullish flow dieting cooling and then when I get close to target temp shit off the pump and let it settle for 15 minutes or so I would leave most of that nonsense in the kettle.
I like the whirlpool pipe on the IC. I might do that because I can without adding another bulkhead and valve.

C_B

Slowly huh. I have a valve for the pump discharge. I'll put that on so I can control flow. I'm not so lazy that I won't install a component I already have.

Thym

CB said:
Definitely a one time deal. I don't have the components for disconnects yet and I'm not sure exactly how I want to place/mount the pump.
Draw from the top, eh? I never thought about that... I'll consider a port specifically for that then. I thought if I whirlpool at fullish flow dieting cooling and then when I get close to target temp shit off the pump and let it settle for 15 minutes or so I would leave most of that nonsense in the kettle.
I like the whirlpool pipe on the IC. I might do that because I can without adding another bulkhead and valve.

yeah, believe me, pulling from the bottom like that you will end up bringing all of the trub into suspension. i know because that is how my system was configured originally. i thought the whirlpool action would keep the trub away from the inlet, but not even close. made some really, really cloudy beer.

scoob

I should state, the return is at the top of the kettle, it's not a perfect set up, and once I kill the IC and make it a counterflow, I'm changing up the kettle, adding a recirc pipe at the top and a whirlpool pickup mid kettle

Thym

CB said:
Slowly huh. I have a valve for the pump discharge. I'll put that on so I can control flow. I'm not so lazy that I won't install a component I already have.

good call. the return can either be at the top or if you have the hardware, make it return about 4-5 inches above the bottom right along the wall of the kettle

scoob

Lake, were you pulling from the center or off to one side? Mine is on the side nearly against the corner

Thym

azscoob said:
I should state, the return is at the top of the kettle, it's not a perfect set up, and once I kill the IC and make it a counterflow, I'm changing up the kettle, adding a recirc pipe at the top and a whirlpool pickup mid kettle

i would switch the inlet and outlet positions, personally. inlet as high as possible, return somewhere between the middle and 1/3 of the way up from the bottom

Thym

azscoob said:
Lake, were you pulling from the center or off to one side? Mine is on the side nearly against the corner

maybe .5 inch off the edge of the kettle wall.

Thym

even when i had it configured without a dip tube it would still spin trub up into the lower 1/3 of the kettle

Thym

once i switched the configuration around it worked much better.

C_B

Lakewood said:

CB said:
Slowly huh. I have a valve for the pump discharge. I'll put that on so I can control flow. I'm not so lazy that I won't install a component I already have.

good call. the return can either be at the top or if you have the hardware, make it return about 4-5 inches above the bottom right along the wall of the kettle

For this one it'll be in the top. But, if the lower pickup was angled, say, 30 degrees off vertical could that double as the recirc return? You'd loose a bit more in the final drain, but I bet it wouldn't be much. And at a low flow it shouldn't cause too much turbulence being sort of pointed at the floor of the kettle.

scoob

Hmm. Interesting findings indeed, I'm planning on making a counterflow chiller as soon as I can score a quality rubber hose, then indeed to drill a few more holes.

I have a second keg I was going to use for a HLT, but I may just use it as a brew kettle and plan it out right from the get go., then use my brew keg as the HLT

Thym

CB said:

Lakewood said:

CB said:
Slowly huh. I have a valve for the pump discharge. I'll put that on so I can control flow. I'm not so lazy that I won't install a component I already have.

good call. the return can either be at the top or if you have the hardware, make it return about 4-5 inches above the bottom right along the wall of the kettle

For this one it'll be in the top. But, if the lower pickup was angled, say, 30 degrees off vertical could that double as the recirc return? You'd loose a bit more in the final drain, but I bet it wouldn't be much. And at a low flow it shouldn't cause too much turbulence being sort of pointed at the floor of the kettle.

it's how mine was used for two batches...

the flow rate has to be stupid slow for it to not want to kick crap up everywhere, at which point the whole thing is rendered useless. best to return higher up and aim it level and along the wall. then you can get a whirlpool action which will keep mos tof the trub toward the bottom.

BTW - to get the whirpool effect you need to have laminar flow where the trub is, so having the return jet anywhere near the trub will never work.

scoob

But for now, running the setup I have now backwards should work as well

Thym

azscoob said:
Hmm. Interesting findings indeed, I'm planning on making a counterflow chiller as soon as I can score a quality rubber hose, then indeed to drill a few more holes.

I have a second keg I was going to use for a HLT, but I may just use it as a brew kettle and plan it out right from the get go., then use my brew keg as the HLT

i'd be happy to help you plan the new one out over a few beers and some fishing.

Thym

azscoob said:
But for now, running the setup I have now backwards should work as well

yep

Thym

you should be able to test the whole concept out with flour and water to get an idea of how it will perform. just take a few cups of flour and put it on the bottom of the kettle, slowly fill with water. if you turn on the pump and the flour stays at the bottom and the water stays clear, you are in good shape. if it starts to mix up, you've got a problem.

scoob

Listen to lake, I am at the moment.

My current whirlpool is so slow it's barely there to keep from stirring up trub

Time to rethink, maybe just add in a pickup next to there turn on the chiller and skip the bottom valve till its time to drain

C_B

This is why I like to theorize, test, theorize and test again before just chopping up a keg and adding a bunch of fittings all at once. Well, that and I'm poor.

Thym

CB said:
This is why I like to theorize, test, theorize and test again before just chopping up a keg and adding a bunch of fittings all at once. Well, that and I'm poor.

or just get really good at welding.

C_B

Lakewood said:
you should be able to test the whole concept out with flour and water to get an idea of how it will perform. just take a few cups of flour and put it on the bottom of the kettle, slowly fill with water. if you turn on the pump and the flour stays at the bottom and the water stays clear, you are in good shape. if it starts to mix up, you've got a problem.

Does your rig pass this test? :D

Thym

it's actually hard to go wrong with putting in several couplers. if i were building another kettle i would probably put 2x as low as possible, 1 @ 1/3 kettle height, 1@ 1/2 kettle hieght & 1 @ 10Gal mark

that would give you the flexibility to move fittings around as needed.

scoob

Lakewood said:
it's actually hard to go wrong with putting in several couplers. if i were building another kettle i would probably put 2x as low as possible, 1 @ 1/3 kettle height, 1@ 1/2 kettle hieght & 1 @ 10Gal mark

that would give you the flexibility to move fittings around as needed.

Modular brewing keggle

Thym

CB said:

Lakewood said:
you should be able to test the whole concept out with flour and water to get an idea of how it will perform. just take a few cups of flour and put it on the bottom of the kettle, slowly fill with water. if you turn on the pump and the flour stays at the bottom and the water stays clear, you are in good shape. if it starts to mix up, you've got a problem.

Does your rig pass this test? :D

not in a whirlpool mode, it doesn't. This is because i dont have a return fitting at 1/3 to 1/2 kettle height. instead, i pickup from around 1/2 kettle and return via a piece of tubing into the top. i need to add a fitting to the kettle at the 10 gal mark and re-plumb to get it to work well.

i've gone through several configurations, none have been ideal. the recommendation i've given is based on having run about 6 different configs and lots of reading. im confident that it will work with a pickup at max level and return around 1/3 - 1/2 kettle height with flow directed to travel along (not splash against) the wal of the kettle in a horizontal direction

Thym

azscoob said:

Lakewood said:
it's actually hard to go wrong with putting in several couplers. if i were building another kettle i would probably put 2x as low as possible, 1 @ 1/3 kettle height, 1@ 1/2 kettle hieght & 1 @ 10Gal mark

that would give you the flexibility to move fittings around as needed.

Modular brewing keggle

like an erecter set

Thym

keys are
1. getting laminar flow (as opposed to turbulent) in as much of the fluid column as possible (absolutely laminar in the lower 1/3 of the kettle, turbulence stirs, laminar separates)

2. keeping any sediment that is stirred up from entering the inlet