Line Flow Rate test
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    I shoehorned this little bugger in here from various parts of the HBF nethereigions. So if it reads a bit odd, that's why.

    This is the prelude to my remote taps build. I am planning four taps in the first floor kitchen with the kegerator directly below in the basement. In order to get my design right, I must first figure out how long my lines should be for the amount of head (vertical rise from the middle of the keg to the horizontal center of the tap) that my system will have. This is more difficult than normal due to the remote location. I will have to build a trunk line that will have the insulated product lines as well as chiller lines running from the kegerator to the taps. Because of this I can't use the start out with 15 feet and cut it down six inches at a time until the system works method that most folks do when setting up their first kegerator (and by most people I mean me).
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    A dry fit will give me the opportunity to try out a couple different design ideas for the tap location also.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,708
    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    I got an email from accuflex. They claim the resistance in 3/16 barrier tubing is the same as vinyl.



    i propose that you perform flow rate tests.


    Good idea. It should be easy enough to dry fit most of the build to get at least the dead rise and the total run before building my trunkline.



    i'd take a length of the stuff and connect it to a bucket, place the bucket a known height above a collection tray or drain. then time how long it a known volume of water to drain from the bucket. perform the same test with the same length of vinyl tubing. post the results!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    I got an email from accuflex. They claim the resistance in 3/16 barrier tubing is the same as vinyl.



    i propose that you perform flow rate tests.


    Good idea. It should be easy enough to dry fit most of the build to get at least the dead rise and the total run before building my trunkline.



    i'd take a length of the stuff and connect it to a bucket, place the bucket a known height above a collection tray or drain. then time how long it a known volume of water to drain from the bucket. perform the same test with the same length of vinyl tubing. post the results!


    I was thinking putting water in a keg an pushing it in roughly the configuration of the final build. I think that would provide data that will require less figuring to get to the end result. I feel a test thread coming on. Maybe the prelude to the build thread.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Actually I just had a thought. I can do this in a couple steps. I can have beer on tap sooner if i rough in the taps to test my location and set up before making it permanent in the kitchen. I can always add the cupboard around it later.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,708
    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    I got an email from accuflex. They claim the resistance in 3/16 barrier tubing is the same as vinyl.



    i propose that you perform flow rate tests.


    Good idea. It should be easy enough to dry fit most of the build to get at least the dead rise and the total run before building my trunkline.



    i'd take a length of the stuff and connect it to a bucket, place the bucket a known height above a collection tray or drain. then time how long it a known volume of water to drain from the bucket. perform the same test with the same length of vinyl tubing. post the results!


    I was thinking putting water in a keg an pushing it in roughly the configuration of the final build. I think that would provide data that will require less figuring to get to the end result. I feel a test thread coming on. Maybe the prelude to the build thread.


    you can go this route, but it would be a little less useful to others in designing their own systems.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    I got an email from accuflex. They claim the resistance in 3/16 barrier tubing is the same as vinyl.



    i propose that you perform flow rate tests.


    Good idea. It should be easy enough to dry fit most of the build to get at least the dead rise and the total run before building my trunkline.



    i'd take a length of the stuff and connect it to a bucket, place the bucket a known height above a collection tray or drain. then time how long it a known volume of water to drain from the bucket. perform the same test with the same length of vinyl tubing. post the results!


    I was thinking putting water in a keg an pushing it in roughly the configuration of the final build. I think that would provide data that will require less figuring to get to the end result. I feel a test thread coming on. Maybe the prelude to the build thread.


    you can go this route, but it would be a little less useful to others in designing their own systems.


    I should be able to do a side by side comparison of 3/16 vinyl and 3/16 Accuflex with head ranging from zero to 10'. I'll do multiple tests at multiple pressures and heights. Say 2, 6 and 10 feet of head and 10, 12, and 15 psi. Each pressure at each height. All will probably be in 12' of line. That is what the vinyl lines are now and i don't feel like chopping up perfectly good lines.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    chandlerbang said:

    I should be able to do a side by side comparison of 3/16 vinyl and 3/16 Accuflex with head ranging from zero to 10'. I'll do multiple tests at multiple pressures and heights. Say 2, 6 and 10 feet of line and 10, 12, and 15 psi. Each pressure at each height. All will probably be in 12' of line. That is what the vinyl lines are now and i don't feel like chopping up perfectly good lines.


    I'm getting back to this now.... I have a client that builds custom furniture and when I got to talking to him about making a cabinet to show off the taps I got me all hot and bothered about this little project again.

    I think this test should give an appropriate range of data.

    Thoughts?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    So you will be pushing beer up around 12 feet or so correct? I might think 1/4" line would work better.

    Lots of kegorator builds use 10 to 15 foot of 3/16 line to get a good pour with a lift of 2 feet above the keg, with a vertical lift that high the resistance would be too great to get a decent pour with the smaller line at proper carbonation pressures.

    This could be way off base though.
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    azscoob said:

    So you will be pushing beer up around 12 feet or so correct? I might think 1/4" line would work better.

    Lots of kegorator builds use 10 to 15 foot of 3/16 line to get a good pour with a lift of 2 feet above the keg, with a vertical lift that high the resistance would be too great to get a decent pour with the smaller line at proper carbonation pressures.

    This could be way off base though.


    I think you may be correct. But what I've been told is the barrier Tubing has way less resistance than normal Bevlex tubing. Since i already bought 100 feet of the barrier Tubing I hope you're wrong. :-)
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,708
    chandlerbang said:

    azscoob said:

    So you will be pushing beer up around 12 feet or so correct? I might think 1/4" line would work better.

    Lots of kegorator builds use 10 to 15 foot of 3/16 line to get a good pour with a lift of 2 feet above the keg, with a vertical lift that high the resistance would be too great to get a decent pour with the smaller line at proper carbonation pressures.

    This could be way off base though.


    I think you may be correct. But what I've been told is the barrier Tubing has way less resistance than normal Bevlex tubing. Since i already bought 100 feet of the barrier Tubing I hope you're wrong. :-)


    math.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    azscoob said:

    So you will be pushing beer up around 12 feet or so correct? I might think 1/4" line would work better.

    Lots of kegorator builds use 10 to 15 foot of 3/16 line to get a good pour with a lift of 2 feet above the keg, with a vertical lift that high the resistance would be too great to get a decent pour with the smaller line at proper carbonation pressures.

    This could be way off base though.


    I think you may be correct. But what I've been told is the barrier Tubing has way less resistance than normal Bevlex tubing. Since i already bought 100 feet of the barrier Tubing I hope you're wrong. :-)


    math.

    Social studies.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    So when is the test happening? I'm interested, if I end up back east a ways I think some cask ale pulled from the basement is worth trying
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    azscoob said:

    So when is the test happening? I'm interested, if I end up back east a ways I think some cask ale pulled from the basement is worth trying


    I'm working a LOT lately. It's really hard to do much of anything. But I'm off this Monday though Friday and memorial day. So here's to hoping it'll happen.
    Cask ale from the basement would be great.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I'm most interested in the conversation you had with your wife when you said, "I want to hook up taps in the kitchen." I am impressed by the entire process and look forward to it all, I also have my keg room directly below my kitchen, so my brain gears are starting to creek, but I am waiting for some of your experience to lead the way.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    It was kind of her idea. She wanted this ugly bastard kegerator in the basement. I said no effin way because I am way too lazy to still be a drinker and have to pound a set of stairs for each beer. I'd start pulling pitchers. Srsly.
    I said,"Ok I'll put the fridge in the basement and the taps on the kitchen wall."
    She said, "Oh that sounds kinda neat."
    I said, "Really? Are you serious?"
    Her, "Yeah, we can put the buffet under it or something."
    I immediately that night purchased the Accuflex line (the reason I need a flow test because I did NO research before purchase) and a pond pump for the chiller lines so she couldn't back out. We have changed what we want to put around it cabinet-wise, but she still wants it done.
    I'm going to try to fiddle with this Friday or Monday.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Run some Hazen/Williams calculations..... get the "n" value of the hose from the manufacturer
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    or even better yet ..... get a "trial" copy of something like KY pipes, and model the whole system
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    ceannt said:

    Run some Hazen/Williams calculations..... get the "n" value of the hose from the manufacturer


    They sent me something. A photocopy of a manual page. When i find that email I'll post it up here.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Here it is. According to this 3/16 barrier and 3/16 vinyl have the same resistance. I'm not sure I believe it. If it's true I'll have 100' of 3/16 Accuflex up for sale. Cheap.
    Restriction Resistance- Beer.pdf
    978K
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    I'm not sure I believe the manual? Yeah I know I said it. I also know it sounds stupid.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    chandlerbang said:

    I'm not sure I believe the manual? Yeah I know I said it. I also know it sounds stupid.



    :))
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    interesting..... the difference seems to become greater as the diameter does.... makes sense... the wetted perimeter becomes a larger percentage of the cross sectional volume.... and therefore more friction losses with the smaller diameter.... but the same?
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    Fill a keg with water, hit it with your usual 12 psi or whatever and run a line up to the kitchen and test this bitch out already!!
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    If you need to off-load some 3/16 hose let me know. I might take some
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    Hmm... partial fail. I guess all the stories about Accuflex being a pain in the ass to get on a barb are true... I'll pick up a heat gun from Harbor Freight this week after work. That seems to be the way to go.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    However, it does fit tightly into the valve on the bottling bucket. So I may yet be able to try @Lakewood 's idea.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • thepunkbrewerthepunkbrewer
    Posts: 9
    So did you ever get to try the test run?



    I want taps in my kitchen!
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 122,708
    @c_dubbs

    I think I know the answer, but see above.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 89,069
    thepunkbrewer said:

    So did you ever get to try the test run?



    I want taps in my kitchen!



    Ha.... I have not..... My wife is pushing pretty hard for this though...
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
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