When to rack?
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I have heard some discussion on other thread re: when to rack to secondary. I had screwed a few batches and want to start eliminatinating a few variables. Let's take a recent liberty cream ale extract kit I brewed from Midwest Brewing. I racked to secondary after only 5 days and the SG went from 1.044 to 1.015 in that five days. I bottled after 14 days from boil and FG was 1.012. I think the beer is okay, it is now 25 days since bottling. Some think it is good, I think it either needs more time or there is something else I should have done. Should I have left in primary longer? Secondary for 9 days only, longer in there? I feel I know how to make beer now, I just want to make GOOD beer now.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454 Accepted Answer
    I leave every beer in primary for a minimum of 3 weeks. Higher gravity beers I may leave in primary for 4 to 5 weeks. The black IIPA I'm brewing tonight has an OG of 1.094 and it will go for 4 weeks in primary. I will rack to secondary to dry hop for one week and then bottle.

    What you described isn't wrong but I think its a bit of old school thinking from home brewers. The LHBS lectured me not long ago about leaving my beer in primary for more than 10 days.

    You can rack when you have reached your target final gravity. That could happen in 5 days. Leaving it in primary will let the yeast clean up after themselves plus ensure you have reached terminal gravity.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583 Accepted Answer
    The whole question of racking to a secondary is a good one. There are no shortage of opinions on the subject, so I'll provide mine.

    For most beers, a secondary fermentation is not necessary. In fact, simply racking a beer from a primary fermentation vessel to a second, clean vessel for the purposes of letting it settle out and finish isn't really a secondary fermentation anyway. Its more of a brighting process.

    For a typical ale, I would leave it in the primary fermenter until it is cleared, which is usually about two weeks. From there you can bottle or keg the product.

    For larger beers it may be necessary to rack from one vessel to another as the fermentation could take a bit longer. Typically the fermentation has completed, you will be transferring to an ageing tank or barrel - again, not really a second fermentation, it a conditioning stage.

    For more complex fermentation schedules you may well be doing a true secondary fermentation. Two examples are fruit beers, or something like a quadruple which has sugars and yeast added in stages. For the fruit beers, you want to add the fruit toward the end of peak fermentation, let it settle down a bit then rack to a secondary to finish out and let the sediment settle.

    For the quad, i actually add sugar at each racking. I get the beer of the trub, move it to a new vessel, and add sugars to restart the fermentation. I usually do this three or four times and at some point actually pitch a more alcohol tolerant yeast in to the mix.

    So to summarize, for typical beers no secondary is needed. You can leave the beer in the primary for a month without any I'll effects. For some types of beers, the secondary fermentation or aging vessels are important parts of the flavor profile. You can't shortcut there.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I have the case you mention at the end Lake. I am brewing a whiskey barrel stout now. Instructions say leave in primary for 10 days, then rack to secondary and add whiskey, wood chips and some spice. Leave for 14 days and bottle condition for nearly 2 months.
    Like you said, lots of opinions, but what does everyone think?
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    Benvarine said:

    I have the case you mention at the end Lake. I am brewing a whiskey barrel stout now. Instructions say leave in primary for 10 days, then rack to secondary and add whiskey, wood chips and some spice. Leave for 14 days and bottle condition for nearly 2 months.
    Like you said, lots of opinions, but what does everyone think?



    That schedule sounds about right to me. I might go a little longer on the chips, depending on the og of the stout. But I'm not subtle, so 14 days may be perfect.

    Bottle condition as long as you can stand to not touch it. You'll be glad you did. Maybe drink a bottle or two at 2months, again at 4,6 and so on, then you will see the effect of the aging process. (Which will be slowed due to the lack of oxygen)

    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    SG was 1.083 when I pitched.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    Benvarine said:

    SG was 1.083 when I pitched.



    @azscoob or @frydogbrews may have some good input here as well, but I think 2 weeks on oak is probably a little short. I'd go 3-4 weeks personally.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    i might start with 2 weeks on oak chips, then pull a sample and see where its at. you will taste the oak at that point and judge from there.
    oak chips are so damn variable from batch to batch that i don't think there is an exact science on how long to leave it on there.
  • djsethalldjsethall
    Posts: 4,040
    I probably have the most unscientific way of judging when to rack. I wait for the airlock to slow down to less then one burp per minute. I agree that the airlock is no real way of telling when a beer is done fermenting, but the racking allows my to get a hydrometer reading and generally, my brews are at the target gravity when the burping slows down as mentioned earlier.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I have another issue now. Left two beers in primary for three weeks, racked both to secondary. Checked today to bottle, and both have not changed at all, gravity that is. Been in 2nd for three weeks now. What's the story? I moved one to new location, but both are mostly around 68-71F. Stirred both today. One is an IPA at 1.014 and final should be at 1.012 on the high end. Other is a whiskey stout, added whiskey to secondary and it is still at 1.040, that one has a ways to go I think, however I don't have a target final. I need help.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    the ipa is done, i would say. 1.014 is a fine, dry finish for an ipa.
    the whiskey stout.....i don't on that one. never made one of those, but it sounds like its stuck to me. i've never had a stuck beer, but if it was wine i would re-pitch.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Same yeast I added originally?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    Benvarine said:

    Same yeast I added originally?



    what was the yeast and what was the starting gravity?
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • JayrizzleJayrizzle
    Posts: 90,049
    Benvarine said:

    Same yeast I added originally?



    That could work, though it's often recommended to pitch something like ec-1118 (a strong wine yeast). I don't think I'd recommend that, as it will really dry it out a lot.
    I'm thinking what happened is you removed most of the yeast when you racked, then you added it to whiskey which may have killed your yeast (more likely made them go dormant). The thing I think would be best (though I'm not an expert) would be to add a different though similar ale yeast, which has a higher alcohol tolerance.

    "I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
    -Some guy in Ohio
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606


    Benvarine said:

    Same yeast I added originally?



    what was the yeast and what was the starting gravity?


    I will check, written down at home.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Wyeast 1099 whitbread ale yeast. SG 1.083. Currently 1.041. And it was actually 14 days ago that I racked, but I would expect it to have dropped at least a little.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    i would think after three in primary the yeast would have finished up (or come very close) even with a bigger beer like that.
    i would just aerate slightly and add more yeast of that same strain first, but again, i have never made a beer like that.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655 Accepted Answer
    Benvarine said:

    Wyeast 1099 whitbread ale yeast. SG 1.083. Currently 1.041. And it was actually 14 days ago that I racked, but I would expect it to have dropped at least a little.



    wyeast says it's tolerant to 10%, so i'd probably aerate and pitch more.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    Benvarine said:

    Wyeast 1099 whitbread ale yeast. SG 1.083. Currently 1.041. And it was actually 14 days ago that I racked, but I would expect it to have dropped at least a little.



    how are you measuring the SG?
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    Lakewood said:

    Benvarine said:

    Wyeast 1099 whitbread ale yeast. SG 1.083. Currently 1.041. And it was actually 14 days ago that I racked, but I would expect it to have dropped at least a little.



    how are you measuring the SG?


    and did you taste it?
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • JayrizzleJayrizzle
    Posts: 90,049

    Lakewood said:

    Benvarine said:

    Wyeast 1099 whitbread ale yeast. SG 1.083. Currently 1.041. And it was actually 14 days ago that I racked, but I would expect it to have dropped at least a little.



    how are you measuring the SG?


    and did you taste it?


    and how much whiskey did you add and of what proof?
    "I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
    -Some guy in Ohio
  • JayrizzleJayrizzle
    Posts: 90,049

    i would think after three in primary the yeast would have finished up (or come very close) even with a bigger beer like that.
    i would just aerate slightly and add more yeast of that same strain first, but again, i have never made a beer like that.



    Reading back, I'd have to agree with Fry. This beer must have been stuck before the rack, don't know how or why, I don't really know much about stuck fermentation, hasn't happened to me yet.
    "I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
    -Some guy in Ohio
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    I have had this happen one other time with an Imperial stout. I believe I either reached maximum attenuation or it just got stuck. I repitched with a champagne yeast and only got another .02 to .04 drop in gravity. I have also read on other sites limited success in getting fermentation going again. But this isn;t a high gravity beer and the yeast shuold be tolerant and I wouldn;t think you had reac'ed max attenuation.

    Also agree with fry that when you racked you may not have left enough yeast behind to continue fermementation.

    You could pitch a champagne yeast or us-05. You may also want to check and make sure your hydrometer is accurate.



    You could also, bottle all of it and ship it to me for proper disposal. These things can be tricky to dispose of safely and you need an expert to handle such a delicate situation
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    i have wines stick pretty frequently. then when i finally get them unstuck, they end up as tasting better then the ones that fermed properly. go figure
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Lots of questions above. Let me try and remember them all.
    Measuring with a hydrometer, I will buy another, just good practice to have a spare to check.
    Added 14oz whiskey to secondary when I racked along with a spice pack and some wood chips. Looked like charcoal to me, probably was considering this is a whiskey barrel stout.
    I forget proof of whiskey, probably around 80, I think that is typical.
    I am hearing same yeast, safale 05, and champaign. I don't have same and can't get it local so would have to order. I am leaning toward 05 or champaign. I stirred yesterday, no air lock action but will check again tomorrow with hydrometer.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Oh, and thanks jlw, if only the postal service would allow me to ship such caustic substances in the mail, maybe just one bottle so the govt don't catch onto the illegal dumping of toxic waste. EPA can be a bitch.
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    if you don't have the same yeast, use s-05 or nottingham ale yeast shoulnd't make a huge difference really. champaign is kind of the nuclear option, try that as a last ditch thing
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    a small amount of aeration goes a long way to "unstick" a fermentation. don't overdo it or you can end up oxidizing a lot of the good stuff, but I'd probably do that before going to champagne yeast, since if that were to really take off you could end up with a cidery mess.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    After 5 days post stirring, no change. Added Safale US-05. It has been one day, a bubble or two so far, but nothing crazy yet. I'll keep you posted.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Benvarine said:

    After 5 days post stirring, no change. Added Safale US-05. It has been one day, a bubble or two so far, but nothing crazy yet. I'll keep you posted.



    You won't get anything crazy. The only way to tell is though a gravity check. My guess is you may not see major movements.