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Berliner-wiesse
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    I'd like to try my hand at a sour mash. I'm aiming to make something similar to Oarsman Ale from Bells. It a pseudo-berliner wiesse that tastes like a slightly soured pils. It doesn't sound great, but the beer is actually refreshing and delicious.

    I'm not sure if i want to do a small sour mash, which would be added to my full mash, sour the whole mash to the level of sourness, or sour mash a large portion of grain, then sparge and freeze the 'soured' wort to be used later on.

    I'm leaning towards the last option. That way I can a specific amount and keep the recipe as repeatable as possible. It would also save some time on brew day to have pre soured wort to use. I just need to figure out how long to leave the wort/mash to get to X level of acid produced.

    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    It looks like I was on the right track. Adding soured 'mash' at a rate of about 10-20% of the total mash is what should give me the sour profile I'm looking for.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    I think I'll try souring some mash according to the procedure outlined in the article, but strain out the grains instead of leaving it all together. That way I can get a better ph reading and control of the souring by freezing it when i'm at the point I want it at.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,417
    Sours don;t sound tasty to me and however, I haven't really tried any either so maybe I should give a try soon. I read somewhere that sour beers may be the next IPA type revolution.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    jlw said:

    Sours don;t sound tasty to me and however, I haven't really tried any either so maybe I should give a try soon. I read somewhere that sour beers may be the next IPA type revolution.



    They're probably already on their way out. If you can find the oarsman ale, try it. It's very restrained in the sourness, unlike the majority of 'sour' beers out there.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,417
    I just noticed the ale house I go to has a couple on tap. May give them a try next time I'm in.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,088
    Not a fan of sour beers ... but I read somewhere that this style has green woodruff in it.. I have a bunch of it growing in my garden ..
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 102,382
    Slightly soured beers can be great. I've had a few, mostly fruit lambics, that were delicious. Soured wiess biers are usually awesome. I've also had funky beers that were.. well... just funky. Not in a good way.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596

    I think I'll try souring some mash according to the procedure outlined in the article, but strain out the grains instead of leaving it all together. That way I can get a better ph reading and control of the souring by freezing it when i'm at the point I want it at.



    well i sorta did this, but a little lazier. i didn't keep track of the gravity or the ph. i just tossed some sugar into the weak wort and let the lacto go nuts. i'll take a ph reading before i use it, but the amount is going to be a guess.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    i think maybe i should take a commercial pils (preferably german) and add a measured quantity to a glass. That way i can calculate out how much to use for 5 gallons or whatever size batch i end up making.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    plus, i get to drink some beers to figure it out! win!
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 77,085

    plus, i get to drink some beers to figure it out! win!


    Winning!
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    i'd like to be able to lager it for a while.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 77,085

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.



    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 102,382
    C_dubbs said:

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.





    Yeah.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,088

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.


    Weekend is half over .... don't forget!
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 102,382
    ceannt said:

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.


    Weekend is half over .... don't forget!


    This is true!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    ceannt said:

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.


    Weekend is half over .... don't forget!


    forget what?
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 102,382

    ceannt said:

    yeesh! i still haven't done this. @fromzwolle don't forget this weekend. this beer needs to happen soon.


    Weekend is half over .... don't forget!


    forget what?


    Nothing
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    ok, i finally did it. forgot to measure the ph, though. i guess it's fairly irrelevant without a measure of the normality and i don't have any way to do that at home. i might take some to work and see if i can't get a little help from our resident chemist.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    here's how the tasting went:

    i split one beer evenly between two glasses and mixed in the soured wort in increasing increments. i did that for the first four samples, but with the 2nd 'round' (samples 5, 6, and 7) the i added more wort to the glass, so as to not drink a bunch of beer and dull my palate. so, for each level, there were approximately 6 ounces of beer to whatever amount of wort.

    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    Sample 1: 1/4 tsp of soured wort

    No discernible change in flavor or aroma.

    Sample 2: 1/2 tsp of soured wort

    No detectable aroma

    Very slight acidic presence in the mouthfeel (puckering affect).

    Very faint whisp of flavor change, not enough to describe.

    Sample 3: 1 tsp soured wort

    There is a very faint aroma change, but not identifiable.

    The flavor change is still very subtle and the mouthfeel much more present/sharp, but not strong.

    Sample 4: 1.5 tsp

    The aroma is more defined, but still subtle.

    The flavor is becoming slightly tart, but still very subtle.

    The mouthfeel remains the same as the previous samples.

    Sample 5: 2 tsp

    Same aroma as the previous sample.

    The flavor is more clearly defined as tart instead of muddled beer and the mouthfeel has a refreshing 'bite'

    Sample 6: 3 tsp

    The aroma is noticeably tart, but still gentle.

    The mouthfeel remains the same as the last sample but the flavor is a much more clear and bright tartness.

    Sample 7: 4 tsp

    The aroma is getting stronger, but similar in profile.

    The tart flavor is very well defined and separate from the background beer.

    Mouthfeel is the same.

    Sample 8: 5 tsp

    The aroma is clear, bright tartness that almost mutes the background beer aroma.

    The flavor is a bright, clean tartness. very refreshing, but not overpowering. Tartness lingers on the finish, where it had been very clean on previous samples.

    Mouthfeel has not increased noticeably.

    Sample 9: 6 tsp

    Same aroma and mouthfeel as sample 8.

    Tart flavor is now very dominant, masking most of the background beer.




    Sample 10: This was a mix of the remaining beer from samples 8 and 9, so let's call it 5.5 tsp. I didn't write any notes for this one, but had in mind that it was mid way between the previous two samples ( duh! )

    The conclusion, in my mind, was that sample 8 would be the perfect amount to add to the oarsman ale type soured wort wheat pils? or whatever you'd like to call it.

    Sample 10 would be more in line with what i'd like to drink in a soured Wit.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    Here are my notes that I have for the soured wort by itself, sampled after number 10.

    Extremely tart flavor, with a sharp mouthfeel that coats the tongue. The flavor is a very bright sourness that has an undefinable fruitiness in the finish.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,596
    So I killed the keg of wit that i added the sour juice to. It was good, but I missed the mash temps and the beer ended up with a bit more body than i intended. The sourness really got lost behind that little extra bit of dextrins. I still have a half gallon or so of sour juice frozen for a round two.

    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B