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Turbid mash
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    So, turbid mashing...

    Have any of you ever tried it? I am really interested in this type of mashing. It's primarily used today for Lambic style beers as it leaves some starches and longer sugar chains for the wild yeast.
    I am interested in trying it out on other styles as well, like a session cascadian dark recipe I have waiting in the wings, and I want to use it on all my belgian beers.
    My one concer (right now) is the preboil volume. From what I have read online is the preboil volume can get pretty large. This bothers me because I only have a six gallon pot.
    Anyways, I was thinking about it, and thought I would ask all you fine people!
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 102,350
    i've not tried it myself. i'm usually shooting to get clear wort in my brews due to the styles i've made.

    it sounds really interesting though. I haven't read enough to know why the pre-boil volume would be substantially greater, given that most homebrewers only top draw the first runnings and then proceed to do a normal batch sparge.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    don't worry about the volume too much..... you need to boil for 3 to 5 hours anyway (traditionally anyhow) This will evaporate the extra volume, and burst up a bunch of starches to make them fermentable to the "cocktail" of critters in a Lambic... or keep them from messing up a regular beer without all them critters.
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    I used a similar method back in my early crude partial mash days.... I mashed in a pot... and pushed a strainer into the mash, and siphoned the wort out of the strainer... I also mashed kinda thick... and I had some problems with starches... really, really cloudy beer....
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    I guess I'm just worried about not having enough room in the six gallon pot...

    I am thinking of maybe trying a couple simple infusion step mashes. I have only used my mash tun once and have only ever done single infusion mashes.

    ceannt said:

    I used a similar method back in my early crude partial mash days.... I mashed in a pot... and pushed a strainer into the mash, and siphoned the wort out of the strainer... I also mashed kinda thick... and I had some problems with starches... really, really cloudy beer....



    I was also thinking of adapting the turbid mash technique to better fit my system, like a step infusion turbid hybrid thing.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    You can actually get away with less mash volume with a single infusion .... don't have to add more water to reach the next "step"
    Just mash it thick ...
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    You can do a modified turbid mash ...
    Without the boiling water additions ... and calculate out your sparge volumes to hit just about any pre boil volume you want .... but I recommend doing the math yourself ... or you will confuse the shucks out of software ...
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    Just remembered this ...... I knew a guy that also had a too small mash tun ... he did a real thick mash for 45 minutes ... drained it ... heated the first "sparge" to his mash temp ... and let it rest for another 45... the idea was to convert anything missed the first time
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    Then he sparged twice at mash out temps.

    He said you have to mash a few degrees higher ... because of the time involved would convert everything more ...

    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    As for your boil pot .... go to a 2 pot boil .. I did it for years ... gotta watch your IBU calcs ... boil gravity of the pot the hops go in not the total ...
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    If you want .... I'll run the numbers for you .... give me your:
    Mash tun volume
    Pounds of grain
    temp you wish to mash at
    desired pre boil volume

    I can fairly quickly come up with a mash/sparge schedule
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    Biggest issue of a "real" turbid mash are all the starches ... if you do it right your wort will almost look like milk ... if you aren't doing a lambic that stuff won't ferment and your beer will have the body of syrup ....
    That's a good thing if you want to make a very low gravity Belgian table beer ... but might get out of hand for anything bigger ... I believe that this is the reason they started using so much added sugars ... in an attempt to dry out an otherwise thick chewy beer
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    Yeah. I have been thinking more and more about this. I think I am going to save the turbid mash for a traditional Lambic/ wild ale or for my session beers.
    I think for now I am going to start practicing with step mashes. I feel like step mashes compared to the single infusion mash gives me a little more control over things like body and fermentability. I am a semi-control freak afterall.
    Also, after reading farmhouse ales over the last few days, it seems these step infusion mashes are traditional for saison a and biere de garde.
    With that being said, I have recalculated the mash rests for my next five brews using the calculation


    Wa = (T2 - T1)(0.2G + Wm)/(Tw - T2)
    Wa = The amount of infusion water to add
    Wm = The total amount of water in the mash
    T1 = The initial mash temperature
    T2 = The target mash temperature
    Tw = the actual temperature of the infusion water
    G = The amount of grain in the mash

    For the water additions at each rest. I have no idea how accurate this will be, but ill have to wait until it is actually put into practice.

    I think once I get step infusions down and working with different consistencies if water/grain I will move on up to the turbid-monster, as with my current mash tun I have done exactly 1 batch, a single infusion at 1.25 qt/lb.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312
    I appreciate the input and offer to do all my calculations! I don't mind doing the math, and actually prefer doing it, as I said, I am a bit of a control freak, haha

    And I like to know every detail and nuance to my system.
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,586
    pretty sure that's the same calculation i used to use. worked great for me.
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • Evan_BEvan_B
    Posts: 312

    pretty sure that's the same calculation i used to use. worked great for me.



    Sweet! Thanks for letting me know. Why did you stop using it?
    Amigo, lay them raises down.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    Evan_B said:

    I appreciate the input and offer to do all my calculations! I don't mind doing the math, and actually prefer doing it, as I said, I am a bit of a control freak, haha

    And I like to know every detail and nuance to my system.



    I can understand that! Thats why I don't trust software to do it for me ......
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 46,586
    Evan_B said:

    pretty sure that's the same calculation i used to use. worked great for me.



    Sweet! Thanks for letting me know. Why did you stop using it?


    i got lazy and stopped doing step mashes. :)
    "Oh, you were serious? I was drunk."-C_B
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    I very rarely do step mashes .... long protein rests are actually detrimental with fully modified malts ... and instead of a mash out I boil my first runnings to stop enzymic activity
    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 48,087
    Far as step mash calculations go.... I have always used the following:

    Vs =

    (((4M/P)+0.19)P + Vt) (Tf - Tm)
    ------------------------------
    (Tb - Tf)

    Vs = volume of boiling water to add to mash to raise temperature to desired rest.
    M = thermal mass of Tun (0.20 works well for me)
    P = pounds of grain
    Vt = initial mash volume (pounds of grain * 0.08 + strike water volume in gallons)
    Tf = Temp. of desired new rest
    Tm = initial temp. of mash
    Tb = temp. of infusion, typically 212 (boiling)

    In wine there is wisdom.
    In beer there is freedom.
    In water there is bacteria.