How much kettle trub do you have?
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    How much wort do you have left in your boil kettle after transferring to fermenter? I really don't know how much to expect. Also, is there anyway to minimize this? It seems like I'm wasting a lot of good liquid, and therefore grain.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430 Accepted Answer
    I pretty much put it all in the fermenter because I feel like I'm losing something. But I am beginning to toy around with whirlpooling. Last time was the first, and i was surprised by how much junk and how little liquid was left.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679 Accepted Answer
    now that i try to mainly just use whole leaf hops (way clearer beer, sooner) i just scoop all the hops out and dump everything in. easy as can be and nothing left over. when i was using pellets, there was lots of junk and i would dump everything in until i had some serious gunk and i would leave that in the kettle. it was usually about 4 cups of hop material and some liquid.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Thanks. I've been stirring it hard with my paddle after cooling then leaving it sit for 30 minutes or more. After that I have been siphoning off the clear beer and trying to leave as much of the other stuff as possible. usually there's about an inch or so in the bottom of my keggle and that seems like a lot of waste to me. There aren't really any hops. I use a nylon hop bag. I'm sure some small pieces make their way through though. I also use the Brew in a Bag method. The contaminate in my waste makes it cloudy, almost white looking. Is this break material?

    I'm getting ready to add a spigot to my kettle and I'm still debating on how best to go about it. I don't know whether to just stick a dip tube on there and draw straight off the bottom or to fix it so I leave a little bit. I guess even if i draw off the bottom I can just discard the first little bit. But if it wont hurt to just use all of it I don't really care. It would also save a lot of time waiting around for it all to settle out.

  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    chandlerbang said:

    I pretty much put it all in the fermenter because I feel like I'm losing something. But I am beginning to toy around with whirlpooling. Last time was the first, and i was surprised by how much junk and how little liquid was left.



    I have been working on expirmenting with whirlpooling for awhile now and I am starting to think it doesn't help much.

    I think I am going to switch to a false bottom, and either pump through a chiller or use gravity.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    What does a false bottom accomplish?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655 Accepted Answer
    flyfisherwes said:

    The contaminate in my waste makes it cloudy, almost white looking. Is this break material?



    yep. i've whirlpooled and siphoned off the wort, and i've just dumped the whole deal into the fermenter. i haven't been able to tell the difference in the end beer. the yeast get nutrients from the break material.

    i have found there to be a noticeable difference in leaving the hops in the wort vs. straining out/bagging the hops.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    So is the consensus that its a waste of time and beer to leave the break material in the kettle if I'm using a hop bag?
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    flyfisherwes said:

    So is the consensus that its a waste of time and beer to leave the break material in the kettle if I'm using a hop bag?



    I am starting to lean this way. Its a pain and it adds easily an hour on to the brew day. The false bottom will filter the trub out of the beer.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    jlw said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    So is the consensus that its a waste of time and beer to leave the break material in the kettle if I'm using a hop bag?



    I am starting to lean this way. Its a pain and it adds easily an hour on to the brew day. The false bottom will filter the trub out of the beer.


    plus i like to get the yeast into the wort as quickly as possible to minimize the chance of nasties getting a head start.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I use a keggle. I have a ball valve on it, no dip tub. Kegs have a rounded bottom, so much of the trub stays in the bottom. I whirlpool, I think it helps. I sacrafice a small amount of wort trying to get clearer beer. I hate dumping all that trub in the fermentor, it probably dosen't matter, and you siphon off it later, but still, that is just less you have to siphon off later in my opinion. Either way, you end up losing some beer in the process, but not much.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    jlw said:

    I have been working on expirmenting with whirlpooling for awhile now and I am starting to think it doesn't help much.

    I think I am going to switch to a false bottom, and either pump through a chiller or use gravity.


    I want to move to a whirlpool eventually on a rig (once I build it). The idea being whirlpool and chill at the same time. Once it is at the right temp most of the junk is in the middle. No real rest period after the whirlpool.

    FromZwolle said:

    i have found there to be a noticeable difference in leaving the hops in the wort vs. straining out/bagging the hops.


    Wait wait, in taste or clarity?

    FromZwolle said:

    plus i like to get the yeast into the wort as quickly as possible to minimize the chance of nasties getting a head start.


    This is basically why I dump it all in now.

    I also leave my beers in the primary for a month easy. Usually longer. The yeast cake is pretty tight at that point, it doesn't really matter whether it is a thin layer on the bottom or an inch thick.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    getting the hop material out makes a huge difference in clarity. i have never noticed any difference in taste at all
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    but god damn it, delicious, clear beer that is hoppy as hell gives me a boner
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    I try to get only clear wort into my fermenter. When i dont i get off flavors and cloudy beer... at least thats what i have come to believe. That white crap is hot break material and its mostly protiens that add no positive aspects to a beer. There are plenty of nutroents for the yeast without it.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Does anyone use a false bottom on the BK to filter out trub?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    chandlerbang said:


    FromZwolle said:

    i have found there to be a noticeable difference in leaving the hops in the wort vs. straining out/bagging the hops.


    Wait wait, in taste or clarity?


    taste. it's not a pronounced difference, but i can taste it. it's like dry hopping for a day too long, but without the added hop flavor you achieve from dry hopping.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    jlw said:

    Does anyone use a false bottom on the BK to filter out trub?



    No one answer this question I am going to post as a new topic.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    White bad..... brown good ... if you are getting a lot of white break you could be boiling too hard.... thermal loading
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    ceannt said:

    White bad..... brown good ... if you are getting a lot of white break you could be boiling too hard.... thermal loading



    Interesting. I didn't know that.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    FromZwolle said:

    chandlerbang said:


    FromZwolle said:

    i have found there to be a noticeable difference in leaving the hops in the wort vs. straining out/bagging the hops.


    Wait wait, in taste or clarity?


    taste. it's not a pronounced difference, but i can taste it. it's like dry hopping for a day too long, but without the added hop flavor you achieve from dry hopping.


    How would you describe this? I have noticed an off flavor in a few of my beers. One particular flavor. I'm not sure how to describe it. It was pretty strong in one batch but in two others it was present, however fading over time.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Grassy?
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    ceannt said:

    Grassy?



    No. I'm bad at flavors. Its a smooth flavor, not overpowering. Starting mid pallet to finish. So far I've had it in a brown ale that sucked anyway. To the point I tossed the last half of the keg. And now to a lesser degree in two separate batches of oatmeal stout. One bottled and naturally carbed and one kegged and force carbed. But it seems to be fading in those.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    chandlerbang said:

    ceannt said:

    Grassy?



    No. I'm bad at flavors. Its a smooth flavor, not overpowering. Starting mid pallet to finish. So far I've had it in a brown ale that sucked anyway. To the point I tossed the last half of the keg. And now to a lesser degree in two separate batches of oatmeal stout. One bottled and naturally carbed and one kegged and force carbed. But it seems to be fading in those.


    yeah, that's the malt......use more hops!!!! <):)
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    frydogbrews said:

    chandlerbang said:

    ceannt said:

    Grassy?



    No. I'm bad at flavors. Its a smooth flavor, not overpowering. Starting mid pallet to finish. So far I've had it in a brown ale that sucked anyway. To the point I tossed the last half of the keg. And now to a lesser degree in two separate batches of oatmeal stout. One bottled and naturally carbed and one kegged and force carbed. But it seems to be fading in those.


    yeah, that's the malt......use more hops!!!! <):) </p>


    This
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    frydogbrews said:

    chandlerbang said:

    ceannt said:

    Grassy?



    No. I'm bad at flavors. Its a smooth flavor, not overpowering. Starting mid pallet to finish. So far I've had it in a brown ale that sucked anyway. To the point I tossed the last half of the keg. And now to a lesser degree in two separate batches of oatmeal stout. One bottled and naturally carbed and one kegged and force carbed. But it seems to be fading in those.


    yeah, that's the malt......use more hops!!!! <):) </p>


    LIES! malt is king!
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    never once heard the word "malthead"....
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    frydogbrews said:

    never once heard the word "malthead"....



    malt man! as opposed to hop queen.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    I try to get only clear wort into my fermenter. When i dont i get off flavors and cloudy beer... at least thats what i have come to believe. That white crap is hot break material and its mostly protiens that add no positive aspects to a beer. There are plenty of nutroents for the yeast without it.



    How long does it take for the bad stuff to settle out?
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I still dont know what to do. How much do you all have left in the kettle? 1qt? 4qt? Is there a difference in the top of the trub/break vs the bottom of the layer?
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    The amount of trub is going to vary. I think you are over thinking this a little.

    Here is what I would do if I were you:
    1. Chill the wort to fermentation temp or at least within a few degrees
    2. Move the BK to an elevated surface like a counter top
    3. Take your mash paddle or a good size spoon and start whirlpooling until you get a nice tight whirlpool cone in the middle and then pull the spoon/paddle out
    4. Cover the BK with foil and step away for 30 minutes
    5. Siphon wort into the bucket trying not to disturb the trub as little as possible
    6. If you still think there is a lot of beer left then you can use a sanitized strainer. It will get clogged with hops and trub so you will need to rinse, sanitize and repeat until you are happy with what you have.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    thats what I'm doing except for step 6. I have half a gallon of stuff maybe a bit more left.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    My end of boil efficiency is like 80% most of the time on a normal sized beer. But I'm still using more grain than most listed recipes because my into fermenter efficiency is low.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    A few cups maybe two quarts... thats normal.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    I propose an experiment (that no one will perform)

    Take .75gal of clear wort off the very top of your boil (after chilling and settling) and place it into a 1 gal jug

    Transferr all except the last .75 gal of "regular " wort to a bucket or carboy.

    And take the last .75 gal of dirty trub water and put it into a second 1 gal jug.

    Pitch each with the same yeast.

    Ferment each at the same temperature.

    Sample and post results.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    That does sound like an interesting test that I will not be performing. Let us know the results from anyone else that also does not perform that experiment. :-@

    jlw
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    Benvarine said:

    That does sound like an interesting test that I will not be performing. Let us know the results from anyone else that also does not perform that experiment. :-@



    i volunteer you to perform this experiment.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    I just wanted to say rack dirty....
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    chandlerbang said:

    I just wanted to say rack dirty....



    That's how I talk to beer.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    I'm gonna rack you dirty.

    Thym
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.

    Oh I thought you wanted relative results. Not something so exaggerated that is bound to give you staggering results.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,655
    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.

    Oh I thought you wanted relative results. Not something so exaggerated that is bound to give you staggering results.


    considering the fact that a few people claim to not be able to tell the difference, myself included, you'll want to make the difference as extreme as possible to really see how much/little taste impact there is.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Also, I'll need you to send all of the beer for an independent investigation.

    Thym
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    FromZwolle said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.

    Oh I thought you wanted relative results. Not something so exaggerated that is bound to give you staggering results.


    considering the fact that a few people claim to not be able to tell the difference, myself included, you'll want to make the difference as extreme as possible to really see how much/little taste impact there is.


    this is what i was going for and why.

    the three sample approach gives you a pretty accurate picture of the effects of totally clean, normal and really dirty wort. If you cant tell much of a difference after this experiment... then i'll never whirlpool again.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,430
    Lakewood said:

    FromZwolle said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.

    Oh I thought you wanted relative results. Not something so exaggerated that is bound to give you staggering results.


    considering the fact that a few people claim to not be able to tell the difference, myself included, you'll want to make the difference as extreme as possible to really see how much/little taste impact there is.


    this is what i was going for and why.

    the three sample approach gives you a pretty accurate picture of the effects of totally clean, normal and really dirty wort. If you cant tell much of a difference after this experiment... then i'll never whirlpool again.

    I forgot about the control or normal sample. Seems more legit that way.

    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,583
    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    FromZwolle said:

    chandlerbang said:

    Lakewood said:

    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    yeah... but not as obvious as fermenting .75 gal of trub.

    Oh I thought you wanted relative results. Not something so exaggerated that is bound to give you staggering results.


    considering the fact that a few people claim to not be able to tell the difference, myself included, you'll want to make the difference as extreme as possible to really see how much/little taste impact there is.


    this is what i was going for and why.

    the three sample approach gives you a pretty accurate picture of the effects of totally clean, normal and really dirty wort. If you cant tell much of a difference after this experiment... then i'll never whirlpool again.

    I forgot about the control or normal sample. Seems more legit that way.


    let us all know the results!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • JayrizzleJayrizzle
    Posts: 90,049
    chandlerbang said:

    An easyish halfassed experiment would be a ten gallon batch split such to provide this scenario. Whirlepool and rack half clean, then mix up and rack dirty.



    I did something like that not long ago. I brewed more beer than would fit in a 5gal carboy so I split it between two. One got all the crap at the bottom, all of it, and I was using pellets. I couldn't tell the difference, well, there was still some crap in the bottom of some bottles, I could tell those ones apart, but other than that; they looked and tasted the same.
    "I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
    -Some guy in Ohio
  • JayrizzleJayrizzle
    Posts: 90,049
    But the discuses more involved experiment sounds like a better way of telling what's what on this story.
    "I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
    -Some guy in Ohio
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