Mocha Porter Design
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I want to design a beer something like rouges mocha porter. Please help. This is what I have and all I can use:


    HOP AA%
    columbus 12.8
    Magnum 11.6
    Cascade 6.6
    willamette 6
    Tettnanger 4
    Magnum 11.6
    cascade leaf 8.8
    crystal leaf 3.3

    Galena 13.2
    Nuggett 12.4
    Colombus 13.3
    Summit 15.5
    Warrior 16
    Willamette 4


    My malts:

    Two Row
    Marris Otter
    Crystal 60
    Crystal 120
    Vienna
    Aromatic
    Victory
    Unmalted Wheat
    Chocolate
    Flaked Rye
    Crystal 10
    Special B

    Thanks in advance.
    Wes
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    i tried it a while back and i remember that it was a decent beer, but i can't remember exactly how it tastes.

    googling gives me these recipes:



    Amount Item Type % or IBU
    10 lbs Briess 2 row malt (1.8 SRM) Grain 81.57 %
    1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 12.23 %
    4.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2.04 %
    4.0 oz Pale chocolate malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 2.04 %
    2.1 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.06 %
    2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.06 %
    1.00 oz Centennial [9.40 %] (60 min) Hops 38.3 IBU
    1.00 oz Pearle [8.00 %] (20 min) Hops 11.0 IBU
    1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
    1 Pkgs Pac-Man (Wyeast) [Starter 125 ml] Yeast-Ale



    Beer Profile

    Est Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
    Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
    Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
    Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.61 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
    Bitterness: 49.2 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
    Est Color: 23.8 SRM Color: Color


    Mash Profile

    Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 12.26 lb
    Sparge Water: 5.86 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
    Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
    Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

    Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
    75 min Mash In Add 15.33 qt of water at 161.4 F 150.0 F

    Recipe 2:


    7 3/4 # 2 Row
    1/4 # Munich
    6oz Chocolate Malt
    2oz Black Roasted Barley
    1 1/2 # Crystal 120L
    60 min hops - 1/2 oz. Centennial 9.5% pellets, 1/2 oz. Perle (German) pellets
    15 min hops - 1/2 oz. Centennial 9.5% pellets, 1/2 oz. Perle (German) pellets
    5 min hops - 1/2 oz. Centennial 9.5% pellets

    mash at 152F with 3.125 gal
    sparge at 175F with 5 gal






    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    They list the Malts on rogues website. Those look similar. What can I get close to the Munich with?
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    I would try a bit of vienna with MO to get something close.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    I would try a bit of vienna with MO to get something close.




    Ok. How about the pearle hops?
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    OK. This is what Rogue's website says:

    Ruddy brown in color, a bittersweet balance of malt and hops with a light cream finish.


    12 Ingredients:

    Malts: Great Western 2-Row,
    135-165, 95-115, and 70-80 Crystal; Chocolate, Black, Munich, and Carastan.

    Hops: Sterling & Perle Hops.

    Yeast & Water: Rogue's Pacman Yeast & Free Range Coastal Water.
    Specs:

    13º PLATO

    54 IBU

    73 AA

    77º Lovibond

    I don't know what some of that means. But here's what I am thinking. I don't necessarily need a clone. I just want another good porter.

    7lbs Golden Promise
    .5lbs Special B
    .5lbs Crystal 120
    .5lbs Crystal 60
    1lbs Chocolate
    .5lbs vienna
    .5lbs toasted MO
    .5lbs unmalted wheat

    Maybe toast some to the golden promise as well.


    I have no idea if that would be tasty. Its just what I see to be somewhat equivalent.

    I am open to suggestions on adjustments. I could also add molasses if necessary.

    I don't know what temp to mash at. I also don't know what OG to shoot for. I would change that recipe proportionally to get whatever gravity I need.

    Oh and I also need more help on the hops as I don't have centennial or pearle.

    Thanks
    FLy



  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    your target OG is 1.052

    by converting the degrees plato to specific gravity using the following formula.

    {Plato/(258.6-([Plato/258.2]*227.1)}+1 = Specific gravity
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Ok. Thanks for all the help lake. I gotta get to bed so I can wake up in time to brew two tomorrow. Hopefully all my questions will be answered by then. Otherwise I'll just use my best judgement and see what happens.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    you really should pick up some black patent for your arsenal, unless you are looking for the flavor components of special b.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    use nugget and galena for the perle and cascade for the centenniel
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    btw your grain bill looks just about right on for the target gravity...
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    you really should pick up some black patent for your arsenal, unless you are looking for the flavor components of special b.



    I figured the special b would be something like that crystal 165 or whatever in their recipe. Does that grain bill look like it'll turn out tasty?
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    and you are correct sir. I need about 10-15lbs of black patent.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Lakewood said:

    you really should pick up some black patent for your arsenal, unless you are looking for the flavor components of special b.



    I figured the special b would be something like that crystal 165 or whatever in their recipe. Does that grain bill look like it'll turn out tasty?


    It looks yummy.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Is that color gonna be right?
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Is that color gonna be right?



    Its gonna be a bit light for lack of black patent. I estimate srm of about 41... which is very dark, but not black.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Here's how it looks in the excell spreadsheet.

    Mocha Porter

    OG 1.054
    76%


    Scaled Recipe
    Percent Weight (g) Weight LBS
    Total 100 5541 * 12.21517466
    Golden Promise 70.0 3879 8.550622261
    Chocolate 10.0 554 1.221517466
    Special B 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Crystal 120 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Crystal 60 5.0 277 0.610758733
    MO (Toasted) 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Vienna 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Unmalted Wheat 5.0 277 0.610758733
    0.0 0 0



    End of Boil Volume (lts): 23.94 *

    Time Grams Ounces AA% IBU
    Nugget 60 13.6 0.48 12.4 = 16.3
    Cascade 60 13.6 0.48 6.6 = 8.7
    Galena 60 13.6 0.48 13.2 = 17.3
    Cascade 15 13.6 0.48 6.6 = 4.3
    Nugget 15 6.6 0.23 12.4 = 3.9
    Galena 15 6.6 0.23 13.2 = 4.2
    Cascade 0.1 9.9 0.4 6.4 = 0.0


    54.7 IBUs
    End of Boil Volume 23.9
    Start of Boil Volume 28.5
    Water Required is... 32.0
    Water Required (at mash temp) 32.6

    Mash 152F 60min

    US05 yeast



    HOw does that hop bill look? see any other issues?
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Is that color gonna be right?



    Its gonna be a bit light for lack of black patent. I estimate srm of about 41... which is very dark, but not black.


    Does the color make any difference besides just what can be seen with your eyes?

  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Lakewood said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Is that color gonna be right?



    Its gonna be a bit light for lack of black patent. I estimate srm of about 41... which is very dark, but not black.


    Does the color make any difference besides just what can be seen with your eyes?



    generally color is just a visual thing. but there is a relationship between taste and color -- the darker grains have flavors that dont exist in lighter grains.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Here's how it looks in the excell spreadsheet.

    Mocha Porter

    OG 1.054
    76%


    Scaled Recipe
    Percent Weight (g) Weight LBS
    Total 100 5541 * 12.21517466
    Golden Promise 70.0 3879 8.550622261
    Chocolate 10.0 554 1.221517466
    Special B 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Crystal 120 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Crystal 60 5.0 277 0.610758733
    MO (Toasted) 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Vienna 5.0 277 0.610758733
    Unmalted Wheat 5.0 277 0.610758733
    0.0 0 0



    End of Boil Volume (lts): 23.94 *

    Time Grams Ounces AA% IBU
    Nugget 60 13.6 0.48 12.4 = 16.3
    Cascade 60 13.6 0.48 6.6 = 8.7
    Galena 60 13.6 0.48 13.2 = 17.3
    Cascade 15 13.6 0.48 6.6 = 4.3
    Nugget 15 6.6 0.23 12.4 = 3.9
    Galena 15 6.6 0.23 13.2 = 4.2
    Cascade 0.1 9.9 0.4 6.4 = 0.0


    54.7 IBUs
    End of Boil Volume 23.9
    Start of Boil Volume 28.5
    Water Required is... 32.0
    Water Required (at mash temp) 32.6

    Mash 152F 60min

    US05 yeast



    HOw does that hop bill look? see any other issues?



    i might cut back on the late hops. i would shift to a 60 and 30 min addition, nothing later.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Its still pretty darn dark. About as dark brown as it can be and still distinguish it is brown.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Its still pretty darn dark. About as dark brown as it can be and still distinguish it is brown.



    yep. it's basically just "not black"
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I messed something up. I don't know what at this point. But my OG was 1.080.... my target was 1.054.... I ended up with less wort than I expected so I guess I either had more evaporation than expected or didn't start with enough water. Should I top it off or leave it? Man that seems like a big difference though. I have exactly 5 gallons of wort in the fermenter. I'm confused as heck.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Its still pretty darn dark. About as dark brown as it can be and still distinguish it is brown.



    yep. it's basically just "not black"



    borat. lol.

    I somehow didn't post my original question before i walked away. That was it though...
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    flyfisherwes said:

    I messed something up. I don't know what at this point. But my OG was 1.080.... my target was 1.054.... I ended up with less wort than I expected so I guess I either had more evaporation than expected or didn't start with enough water. Should I top it off or leave it? Man that seems like a big difference though. I have exactly 5 gallons of wort in the fermenter. I'm confused as heck.



    what was the target volume? that's a huge difference in gravities.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    I messed something up. I don't know what at this point. But my OG was 1.080.... my target was 1.054.... I ended up with less wort than I expected so I guess I either had more evaporation than expected or didn't start with enough water. Should I top it off or leave it? Man that seems like a big difference though. I have exactly 5 gallons of wort in the fermenter. I'm confused as heck.



    hmmm... you probably should post exactly what you did... cause that is a fuggin huge difference.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    FromZwolle said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    I messed something up. I don't know what at this point. But my OG was 1.080.... my target was 1.054.... I ended up with less wort than I expected so I guess I either had more evaporation than expected or didn't start with enough water. Should I top it off or leave it? Man that seems like a big difference though. I have exactly 5 gallons of wort in the fermenter. I'm confused as heck.



    what was the target volume? that's a huge difference in gravities.


    yeah, i can't even begin to imagine how you could get 80 points out of that grain bill unless you boiled down to 3 gallons or something.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I used about 12.3lbs of grain. It doesnt make any sense to me either. but I have 5 gallons of liquid in the fermenter. I usually have a little more. The Rye IPA was 1.076 with 16 lbs of grain. And a little more liquid in the fermenter.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    what was the temperature of the gravity sample? and was there a bunch of break material/hop particles in it?
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    I used about 12.3lbs of grain. It doesnt make any sense to me either. but I have 5 gallons of liquid in the fermenter. I usually have a little more. The Rye IPA was 1.076 with 16 lbs of grain. And a little more liquid in the fermenter.



    with 12.5 lbs of grain i would expect around 1062, 10.5 lbs around 1050
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I've never missed any gravities by more than a couple points until now but this is only my 50th gallon all grain. I dunno whats up. or what went wrong.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    i would leave it. topping off without accounting for it will lower the bitterness even more.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    FromZwolle said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    what was the temperature of the gravity sample? and was there a bunch of break material/hop particles in it?


    Used a hop bag. Picked up some break with the syphon though. A little more than usual because I was lower on the volume than usual. but the break settled out as far as i could tell... it had been sitting still for 90+ minutes when i checked the gravity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    flyfisherwes said:

    FromZwolle said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    what was the temperature of the gravity sample? and was there a bunch of break material/hop particles in it?


    Used a hop bag. Picked up some break with the syphon though. A little more than usual because I was lower on the volume than usual. but the break settled out as far as i could tell... it had been sitting still for 90+ minutes when i checked the gravity.


    weird. i'd leave it as is and see what happens.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Recheck your gravity sample. Maybe something happened there.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    FromZwolle said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    what was the temperature of the gravity sample? and was there a bunch of break material/hop particles in it?


    Used a hop bag. Picked up some break with the syphon though. A little more than usual because I was lower on the volume than usual. but the break settled out as far as i could tell... it had been sitting still for 90+ minutes when i checked the gravity.


    if you have a hagher boil gravity your hop utilization will be reduced. topping off will water it down. just let it ride. it's going to be a big 'ol beer.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    jlw said:

    Recheck your gravity sample. Maybe something happened there.



    yes, do that.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    Lakewood said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    i would leave it. topping off without accounting for it will lower the bitterness even more.


    Ok. I'll leave it and just dump in some yeast. 1 or 2 packs of US05? I guess I'll end up with a really strong porter. I'm ok with that.

    I dunno what was up. I usually hit gravities fine. The excel spreadsheet usually gets me where I want to be. I usually leave a lot of trub in the kettle which accounts for my grain bill being higher than most for the same gravity. I think i get a lot of trub because of the BIAB technique or my bag is to course. I dunno.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    jlw said:

    Recheck your gravity sample. Maybe something happened there.



    I double then triple checked.... I couldn't believe it when i took it. I dont usually "take a sample" I just sanitize my hydrometer really well and drop it in the bucket.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    Lakewood said:

    flyfisherwes said:

    Regardless. I cant figure what I did unless I measured more grain or something stupid like that. But will it be tasty like it is or should I add water?



    i would leave it. topping off without accounting for it will lower the bitterness even more.


    Ok. I'll leave it and just dump in some yeast. 1 or 2 packs of US05? I guess I'll end up with a really strong porter. I'm ok with that.

    I dunno what was up. I usually hit gravities fine. The excel spreadsheet usually gets me where I want to be. I usually leave a lot of trub in the kettle which accounts for my grain bill being higher than most for the same gravity. I think i get a lot of trub because of the BIAB technique or my bag is to course. I dunno.


    go with two packs.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I'll just leave it be and ferment it out. Count it as an outlier. maybe it will be delicious. who knows. if not and its that high gravity at least I might be to fucked up to care....
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    have you checked the hydrometer in water? the paper inside can sometimes get moved up or down.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    I'll just leave it be and ferment it out. Count it as an outlier. maybe it will be delicious. who knows. if not and its that high gravity at least I might be to fucked up to care....



    you can always just turn it into a quardruple and get crazy
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    The hydrometer is painted on. and its been correct in water and other beers have been fine.

    What is a quadruple?

  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,601
    flyfisherwes said:

    The hydrometer is painted on. and its been correct in water and other beers have been fine.

    What is a quadruple?



    its a big begian style beer, i generally make mine by using a dark Imperial IPA and adding sugars and molasses to it until i hit about 14%ABV. But you could do it with what you have as a base. just wait until is fermented mostly, then throw some dissolved sugar in there, let the ferment kick up again, then before it totally dies, do it again. you'll want to throw in a belgian strong ale yeast on the secondary ferment, it'll give you some extra flavors that make it pop. I usually rack the beer to a secondary between the first ferment and the first or second sugar addition... then let it sit cool for a long time. ferment the sugars at around 60-62 degrees, lower than that can give better results, but increases the risk of a stuck fermentation.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    use maple, honey, or brown sugar. that would be delicious.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Fly, I know you are a little pissed because you missed your numbers. That kind of stuff also aggravates me as well. I will bet this turns out to be one your best beers. Just go with it. make sure you let it ferment completely out. I would let it go 4 weeks in primary and then I would secondary for a month as well. You have some complex flavors there that will need some time to merge together. Be patient with this beer. Age is your friend. Also make sure you prime accordingly for a higher abv beer. Sometimes high abv beers can take a little time to carb properly.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    thanks guys. I'm not really upset about missing the numbers. I'm more upset that I can't figure out what it was that made me do it. I figure it will be good beer as well. I'll be sure and stick it in a carboy in 3 weeks and leave it there for a month.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    flyfisherwes said:

    thanks guys. I'm not really upset about missing the numbers. I'm more upset that I can't figure out what it was that made me do it. I figure it will be good beer as well. I'll be sure and stick it in a carboy in 3 weeks and leave it there for a month.


    Sounds like you have a good plan. I bet it will be a great beer.
  • flyfisherwesflyfisherwes
    Posts: 1,053
    I figured it out! I checked the gravity in the fermenter today. 1.020. But what I figured out was that there is almost a gallon less liquid in there than I expected. I guess the other keg I'm using for boiling has a higher evaporation rate. Anyway its good to know.
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