Little things I have learned along the road to making better beer.
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I thought I would start putting down on “paper” some of the things I have learned over the course of better than 20-years of brewing. Perhaps someone will benefit from them, and maybe, just maybe, my methods will carry on after I am gone…. Some of the topics I will go over can be somewhat controversial, and may not jive with conventional accepted practices. I am not intending to start controversy…. Just convey what I have learned…. Much of it the hard way….. what works for me.
This will be an on-going project…. And I will add to it frequently as I think of things. Feel free to comment, ask questions, or just tell me I’m crazy…..
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
The most important thing of all:
Don’t believe everything you read or hear about brewing, no matter how respected the author is….…. Question everything. Even if something makes sense… at least in theory…. Ask yourself why? Or why not?
For just one example of “Blinder Theory”…. I read for years that a WitBier needed to be consumed young, age one and it turns to shucks…. So, I eventually tried brewing a Belgian WitBier, and went out of my way to drink it all as fast as I could…. Well I missed one. A bottle sat at room temp. for a year before I came across it….. of course I drank it…. It was phenomenal …. Absolutely stellar…. Way better than it was young. It may have been that little bit of Munich malt I put in it to give it a little depth (something I have always found missing in the style) the fact that I only used about 35% wheat, or any other number of things…. But I really wish I hadn’t had my blinders on, and aged the whole batch a bunch more….
So basically what I am saying is to not put your blinders on….. most of the topics I will go over relate back to this simple concept.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Great thread! I look forward to reading more, and don't worry I won't believe everything you say ;)"I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Longer fermentation time in primary has been one of the keys to better beer for me. I now leave mine in for a minimum of 3 weeks up to 4 or 5 for really big beers.
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Oh, and one more. Fermentation temperature control has been someting I am learning now that I have a decent set up and a nice ranco digital controler.
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Great idea for a thread. And i too has heard that about witbier. But i have a few bottles left from a batch of Snow Storm that were brewed probably a year and a half ago, and they are so good they bring a tear to my eye when i open them.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Thanks guys.....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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For what it’s worth, here is my two cents on racking beer, and Secondary…..
Don’t do it at all….. ever.
At least for Ales….. a long term Lager is a different story…..
Autolysis won’t have any effect unless it’s in there for well over3-months, and without oxygen I’m not a hundred percent sure it would kick in even then….
Mead I will typically rack after 3-months, and bottle after an additional 3-months, but beer…. Never.
I ferment in Primary only. My theory is that the young beer needs contact with suspended yeast. I didn’t coin the “so the yeast can clean up after itself” adage, (in fact didn’t even hear it for a long time after I started brewing this way) but that’s a good way to put it. I will typically allow my beer to stay in Primary for a minimum of 5-weeks, (4-weeks for very low gravity stuff), and up to 7-weeks, depending on style and gravity. I will gently rouse the yeast after the first week, and again after the second. After that I will rouse the yeast maybe twice or so for week 3, and every other day for the remainder. You want suspended yeast. Even yeast that is highly flocculant will suspend viable yeast when roused. The suspended yeast cleans house, and fewer off flavors from yeast occur. Because of this, temperature control during fermentation is not as critical.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Racking/Secondary continued….
Years ago… like in the late ‘80s or early ‘90s… I had an argument with another homebrewer (a neighbor of my Uncle’s in Springfield Virginia) about this topic…. Just to prove me wrong he did an experiment…
He brewed ten gallons of Ordinary Bitter, and split it…
5-gallons went in his fancy fermentation chamber under tight temperature control… and under the then current philosophy, 1-week in Primary, 2-weeks in Secondary…. then bottled. Lets call this sample “A”.
The other 5-gallons went in an upstairs room with an average ambient temp of around 80-degrees…. (I call cheating on that, but wait…) Per my instructions it stayed in Primary for 5-weeks, with gentle yeast rousing every other day for the last 3-weeks…. then bottled. Lets call this one sample “B”.
Both used the same wort, the same yeast, and the same amount of Priming sugar.
A month after bottling “B”, he had several folks over…. All of them “confirmed Beer snobs”. All he told them was that there was a difference in the “process”, and did a blind taste test.
Every single one of them said that sample “A” had minor off flavors from yeast, a touch of DMS, and perhaps needed to age longer….. but was otherwise good beer.
Sample “B” on the other hand was clearer (!), and cleaner, with no DMS or other off flavors, and had better head retention (still trying to figure that one out), and all in all was a much better beer. He thought that perhaps he had mixed up the batches, so he grabbed a few more bottles (with the labels still on) and tried again…. Same result.
He called me a whole lot of very nasty names…. Absolutely furious that my Primary only method, not only wasn’t crap, (when all conventional thought said it should have been) it was better…. He used the word “heretic” in there about three times….. that was the last time I ever spoke to him….. (I think I would still punch him in the nose if I ever see him again after the way he spoke to me) so I don’t know if he changed his brewing habits or not. There are a whole lot of other potential variables that could have affected the outcome, but……….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
that's hilarious.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
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Funny story. I do a min 3 week primary and I still dry hop in secondary otherwise I only use secondary for very long age periods.
Recently had the LHBS owner lecture me on leaving my beer in primary for more than a week and how I was going to ruin it. It's not worth the debate b/c it won;t change his mind so I nod yes and leave. -
Just an observation…..
Very early in my brewing career (read first batch) I realized that the little book that came with my first “Brewing Kit” was just about the worst thing ever… This was back in the 80’s. The procedures outlined in that evil document had nothing to do with crafting good beer, only to sell as much of their products as possible. I still think that the whole concept of racking an Ale to secondary was nothing but a marketing ploy, and had far more to do with them being able to sell another can of malt extract in a weeks time, instead of in a month or more….
Long ago a buddy of mine purchased a kit just like the one I started out with…. I told him that was cool, but that he needed to “exorcise” it before use…. I told him to have someone else open the box, remove the booklet, take said document out in the backyard and light a match…. “Even a quick glance will corrupt you” I said….. “unless you really only want to make prohibition era bathtub swill”.
That little book from Hell has done more harm to the reputation of Homebrewing than anything else, ever. I find it amusingly horrifying that many of the methods in that document have found their way into accepted practice, even with all grain brewers that should really know better (some of whom have written very influential books). I have dedicated my life to the cause of enlightenment, and fighting the shadow of that little book.
End “conspiracy theory” rant.
Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against extract brewing…. You can make some excellent beer with extract, just not the way it was outlined in that book. I went to all grain for the versatility and the control…. (Extract brewing does have limitations). I will have to write up an “article” on extract brewing later…..
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I thought of another one...
The instructions that I got orginally from the LHBS told me to cool my priming sugar all the way down to the same temp as the beer. Man this added time onto the bottling day. I was doing some reading about year ago when someone said they never do that. They let cool while preping bottles and getting set up but then they pour the sugar in at whatever temp it is currently at. One to two cups of hot liquid isn't going to change the temp of 5 gallons of beer. One of things I have done to lean out the bottling process. I think I can bottle 5 gallons in about 45 min now. That's start to finish and clean up. -
my priming sugar goes right into the bucket/keg boiling hot. according to the decoction calculations:
DecoctionVolume = (TargetMashTemperature – InitialMashTemperature) * (GrainWeight * (0.3125 + (WaterInMash / GrainWeight))) / (InfusionWaterTemperature – InitialMashTemperature)
a .25 quarts of boiling water added into 5 gallons of beer (and 1# of grain for the calculations) will raise the temp a whopping 1.74 degrees.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
FromZwolle said:
my priming sugar goes right into the bucket/keg boiling hot. according to the decoction calculations:
DecoctionVolume = (TargetMashTemperature – InitialMashTemperature) * (GrainWeight * (0.3125 + (WaterInMash / GrainWeight))) / (InfusionWaterTemperature – InitialMashTemperature)
a .25 quarts of boiling water added into 5 gallons of beer (and 1# of grain for the calculations) will raise the temp a whopping 1.74 degrees.
Fine, come in with all your fancy #'s and rithmitic and show me up! -
why is quarts plural when they're less than 1?
stupid 'merca!
**==The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
Exactly….. this is the sort of thing I’m talking about…
Next time you go in there jlw…. Say “Long live Big Brother” a few times……
Just out of curiosity, I “did the math” too…… if you have 5-gallons of beer at 68-degrees. To raise the temperature of the beer by 1 degree…. It would take 0.54-cups of BOILING water…. At least if I converted everything correctly in my haste… … I use 0.75-cups (OK, I boil it a bit so it will be a little less due to evaporation), but it is most certainly NOT boiling by the time I’m ready to pour it in the bottling bucket….. Don’t know what the temp is…. But in the 10-15 minutes or so, I’m sure it has cooled off a good bit, no more volume than there is… and besides….. if a guy is that effing worried about 1-degree…. He has far bigger and more deep seated problems, and should seek help immediately……..
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I may be way off base here….. but I think that most of the Home Brew Brainwashing started back during Prohibition. Somebody figured out a way to get rich (without going to jail), and came up with a way for anybody to produce alcohol in their home. Didn’t have to be good…. Just had to be brain-dead easy, fast, cheap… and have alcohol in it….. lets face it, any idiot can make alcohol…. Creating good beer is a whole ‘nuther animal…. Besides, most folks out there really don’t care if it’s good even now…. Just look at the popularity of Bud-Light….. my god, a style that the Guidelines list “flavor” as a fault!!
Most of the things I have rebelled against are either things that made it more profitable for someone back then (and now for that matter), or were just to add a level of “mysticism” to the process (it can’t really be that easy now can it… ?), without adding to the difficulty level…. (I’m about half surprised that it isn’t considered imperative to turn around three times and spit right before you pitch the yeast….) If you read literature on brewing that was published prior to prohibition you won’t find any of this BS in it. For some reason when Homebrewing made a resurgence, the Prohibition methodologies hung on…….. and the brainwashing came along for the ride with it….. and then multiplied like a virus……
What amazes me the most is how fanatic a lot of Brewers, and LHBS owners can be about stuff that is sheer insanity. I find it crazy that people actually get angry and feel threatened when they find out that I’m doing something different……. It’s not like anything I do will affect their beer…. Maybe those guys are just insecure about their brewing, and find comfort in the “ritual” of these things…. But dang it, it’s like I was debating a theological or hot political topic or something…… Kind of funny, but a former co-worker once said that I was like a warrior monk fighting the powers of darkness….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
preach on, brotha! fight the powa!
give that little miss information a good kick in the crotch.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
Windmills and such
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Can we rename this thread and title it something like: "old man ramblings" or "you know what makes me mad sonny?"
:-))
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hah!Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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My theory about why the Primary only method is better….
I can’t back this up with science…. And my explanation is about as scientific as a gut-shot groundhog, but based on my observation and experience here are my thoughts….
During the first few days of active fermentation, when the airlock is bubbling like crazy, krausen forms, etc. there is a huge feeding frenzy going on….. basically a wild orgy in the fermenter…. There are a lot of “scraps” left behind…. Half eaten sugars, various gasses and other “by products”… like at any other wild ‘n crazy orgy the yeast trash the place…. And the warmer the temperature, the more they trash it.
As things start to settle down, a large number of the “attendees” are sated, full and tired… and hit the floor to sleep. There is still a lot left in there for them to consume, but it’s more work for them to do so, and it’s a whole lot easier to just take a nap. If you rouse some yeast off the bottom at this point (wake them up so to speak) you have more yeast in solution to clean up the mess.
If all of the yeast that flocculate to the bottom were dead…. Why is putting a new batch of wort on top of the trub to re-use yeast so dang effective????? Huh? Huh?....
I read of guys who do this up to 3 or 4 times……. Wouldn’t you worry about autolysis????
Also, having some dead yeast in there is actually a good thing. What is in that package of yeast nutrient? Uh, dead yeast cells….
The yeast at this point need additional nutrients to continue consuming what is left in the young beer, and they get these nutrients from their buddies that didn’t make it. If you transfer to secondary, the yeast that are in suspension are too few in number, are under-nourished, and don’t have a chance to finish cleaning up after the orgy all by themselves….
I often notice a little flurry of activity even after 3 or 4 weeks, usually after I rouse the yeast, this is a good sign that there is still “work to be done”. Even in a Primary only situation, it takes a little time for the “clean up”. Fermentation may appear to be over, but the yeast are still active, if lethargic. If you bottle or keg too soon it’s kind of like Mom and Dad getting home before you finish cleaning up after the big party, and that is never a good thing…….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Back to Priming Sugar:
I bottle my beer. I do this for several reasons, one is that I can sample one or two, and let the remainder age. I can experience the development of the beer over an extended period of time this way. I also like to share with my buddies, and it’s easier with bottles. I’m also a cheap SOB…. And am somewhat reluctant to make the investment in kegging equipment………
When I first started brewing everything I read or heard stated that the ONLY thing to use for priming was corn sugar….. period, the end. I used corn sugar for years, until I got to thinking that sugar is sugar…. Why the heck am I spending all the extra money? (and why the heck am I listening to what “they” say….) So I took off my blinders….. I have used plain old table sugar ever since, and there is no noticeable difference in flavor or in the head. Table sugar does have a higher potential gravity, so has the added benefit of requiring a little less.
I will boil the water for a few minutes, say 5, and turn off the heat as soon as the sugar dissolves. I have found that if you don’t boil the heck out of the sugar it gives better results. (and no…. I don’t cool it off to the same temp. as the beer first, speaking of pin-headed blinder theory mentality….)
Any fermentable sugar would potentially work, invert sugar, brown sugar, maple syrup, “Karo”, honey, molasses, DME, just balance the potential gravity to the intended carbonation level. Some will perhaps give some flavor, some won’t. I like the table sugar because it doesn’t have any impact on flavor or color, and is more predictable.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
One theory I head about the secondary ferment: yeast what crappy back in the early days of post prohibition home brewing. Now that we can get better strains of fresher yeast attolysis is very rare.
Though it could have been one loud mouth brewer (and likely wine maker) who had an attolysis problem once and made up the secondary rule.
I tend to bottle before I should and wash and reuse my yeast. I'm going on beer 5 or maybe it's 8 with the same WLP002. Still works great! The only problem is if it gets infected. It may evolve a little over time, but that could well be a good thing.
I've always heard cane sugar give an apple like taste when used in brewing. Not a bad thing necessarily, and priming sugar may not be enough to make that flavor come out at all. I've used cane, but mostly use corn sugar, don't really know why, once I'm out I think I might just give it up."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
jlw said:
Can we rename this thread and title it something like: "old man ramblings" or "you know what makes me mad sonny?"
:-))
"you what really grinds my gears?!?" -
Dr_Jerryrigger said:
Though it could have been one loud mouth brewer (and likely wine maker) who had an attolysis problem once and made up the secondary rule.
wouldn't have been a winemaker, at least not talking about autolysis. wine is a whole different beast where you want to rack pretty quickly to get it off the gross lees. unlike beer, there is a bunch of junk in the wine must (or cider) and leaving it sit on there too long really brings out some funk. its not from autolysis though, just funk released from pulp (essentially) as it breaks down further and further.
funny to imagine that the early brewers may have seen the vintners doing this and assumed they should also do it for beer. except, for the most part, the majority of sediment in beer is hops and yeast, very very different than fruit pulp.
then you look at mead.
with just honey, water and yeast, you can leave that in a primary for a damn year if you really want to, with no noticable taste, at least on my part. in a mead, the gross lees (trub if you will) is nearly pure yeast sediment.
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Dr_Jerryrigger said:
I've always heard cane sugar give an apple like taste when used in brewing. .
I've always heard that too...... that's why I tried it.... Truly no difference...
I know of one brewer who supports the "apple/cidery" myth, that turns around and uses an entire pound of cane sugar in his Belgian Golden Strong beers..... I don't notice a whole lot of "apple" in them myself.......Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
OK, this topic is going to hurt…..
Sanitation:
I think we may over obsess about sanitation….. me included. More than anything else sanitation has been hammered into us from the git-go….
I have had things drop, fall and otherwise end up in my beer that have just about given me heart failure….. and have never had an infection… (I don’t count the “Great Lager Disaster of 1991” because that was due to the airlock being dry for god knows how long… maybe 2-4 months??)
Once, someone (who almost did not survive) let the dog in while I was getting ready to pitch yeast…. The dog ran straight over and threw a tennis ball, saturated with dog slobber, and covered with dirt…. Right into MY BEER!!!!…. I went right in after it with my hand, and a good part of my arm, to fetch it out… maybe the “2-second rule” applies… who knows….. but the beer turned out fine, no infection.
I have a pdf somewhere of a brewing book that was written in the 1700s…. the old boy had a very brief section in there about sanitation…. How to avoid “foxed” beer…. Sanitation was, well, very minimal…. almost to the point of non-existence…. And from what I can gather from his writing, infections were no more common then than they are now in the days of Star-san in spray bottles….
I do not boil my rinse water, I rinse straight from the tap. I rehydrate dry yeast in straight tap water (I do sanitize the bowl first). I don’t use a pump to start a siphon…. I fill the hose with straight tap water (literally, I hold one end up to the discharge from the faucet), stick one end in the beer, the other in a glass, and when it stops coming out clear…. Put it in whatever I am siphoning into. It’s fast, easy, nothing to impede the hydraulic capacity of the hose…. No pump to sanitize, and less contact with air. A buddy caught wind of all this and about had a fit…… I told him that if he was that worried about his water….. maybe he shouldn’t drink it…..
I use Iodine to sanitize. I buy big bottles of the stuff at the grocery store. I don’t measure, just “squirt” some in by eye…. So maybe an ounce per every 2.5 gallons or so…. So far has worked just fine….
Someday I will get up the guts to try an experiment…. And not sanitize at all, just rinse everything off real well (just the thought almost sends even me into convulsions…….. it’s hard to overcome all the brain washing). Maybe I’ll just wait until I’m ready to “retire” a fermenter…..
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Sanitation continued….
I now do not go to great lengths to sanitize bottles…… I rinse them out very well (I shake the heck out of them) about 4-times after I pour one…. And let them set for often up to 3 or 4 months…. Before I bottle I stick them into my fancy new-fangled Bosch dishwasher on the “pot scrubber” setting (no soap!!!). The dishwasher does not use a heater to dry….. it uses condensation on the stainless steel. (only one I have ever had that didn’t get incased with lime within a couple of months). After it runs, I open the door slightly and allow them to cool before I fill them up. And that is IT…. With never an infection, or any other problems…. I look back on the countless hours I used to spend sanitizing bottles….. what a waste… what a pain in the buttocks it was. I doubt I would have ever considered doing it this way with any other kind of dishwasher…. But. Maybe I’m just one lucky S.O.B., but I would have thought that if I was just a fugitive from the law of averages… I would have been “apprehended” by now…..
I firmly believe that almost all infections are airborne ….. limit contact with air as much as possible, and you limit the possibility of infection… don’t take a lot of gravity samples (2 is plenty, one is better), don’t rack to secondary, keep fluid in the dang airlock. No matter how well you sanitize, something airborne can nail you if you needlessly expose the beer to the air time and time again. There is always bacteria and other microbes in beer…. You can’t kill all of it no matter how hard you try. My theory is that if you have suspended healthy yeast in there, most bacteria and other infections don’t have as much of a chance to take over….. another reason why I believe that racking off the yeast into secondary is not a good idea….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I only take gravity samples after the beer has been in primary for 3 or 4 weeks and most likely is done.
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Efficiency:
Don’t obsess about efficiency…..
really, really good efficiency is not necessarily a good thing. (And why I think that a lot of commercial brews are lacking in flavor.) I firmly believe that extracting sugars, and extracting flavor are two different things. If you get awesome efficiency, and cut down on grain amounts to account for it, you are short changing yourself on flavor. I would much rather have flavorful beer, than to use a couple of pounds less grain.
I think the optimum balance is somewhere between 73 and 78%. I calculate everything at 73%..... I normally get around 75% or a little better with my equipment but, will typically get a little more than 5-gallons, so it all balances out, and it’s way easier than figuring on a 5.2394578 gallon batch or something.
I don’t bother taking a starting gravity much anymore….. I can pretty much tell how I did. If the gravity is a bit higher, cool. If it’s a bit lower, who shives a git, as long as it tastes good…. No sense in adding needless stress to a brew day….. hell, this is supposed to be fun!
Nowdays I only take an O.G. if I’m not sure what results I’m getting from some new ingredient or technique.
I get a big kick out of newbies who post things on-line like “aaahhhhhh…. I broke my hydrometer! I can’t brew until I get a new one!!” or “do I have to dump my beer if I can’t measure the gravity???” Panic is not good for beer….. focus on technique, not on a bunch of numbers…. Don’t let numbers rule your life…. ‘cause the beer sure don’t care one way or another.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
i rarely take gravity readings anymore. i've tuned in my process to the point where i'm getting consistent efficiency, so i know more or less where the beer is at. Being consistent is way more important than having high efficiency.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
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i have brewed without sanitizer before. well, fermented anyway. no problem. cleaned bucket with soap, rinsed really well with hot water.
my young hound has a real taste for wort. he's a dick like that. at least 10 batches he has stuck his whole nose, maybe 3" deep in cooling wort. then he comes up smacking his lips while my wife grabs the AED machine to restart my heart.
again, no problems. (and that buggers nose is unbelievably dirty almost all the time)
the thing is, i rarely age any of my beers as most of them are hop monsters and meant to be drank young. if i allowed them 6 months to age, an infection might come out, but in my case, the hops are an extra antiseptic.
i do taste sugar or corn sugar when its added to beer. it is a cidery flavor i can taste distinctly. i can't tell for priming sugar, but when folks add a pound or two of corn sugar to their beer, i can certainly taste it. i don't mind the flavor though. -
The old "one can of LME and 4-cups corn sugar" in the "instructions" of most beer kits is the surest way to get that cidery taste........ gaak.....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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Keep a detailed notebook.
Many of you probably already do this, but it’s worth mentioning.
You never know when you might need information from a past brew. Way easier to brew another batch a couple of years later too. So leave yourself a record of every single batch you brew.
At a minimum record the style, and a brief description of anything out of the ordinary, and the intent. Record the Brew date, the bottle/keg date. Any kind of mash schedule… dry hopping, whatever. I used to write down the entire recipe, but now just throw a print-out in it. Note down any problems… stuck sparge… had to leave to “rescue” somebody with a flat tire, and left it to mash for 3-hours (beer was awesome by the way)…. Dog put his tennis ball in it….. Or whatever….. You never know when something that went “wrong”, may turn into something you want to do every time!
I started keeping a detailed notebook back when I was doing my first extract batches, and I’m very glad I did….. even if it was just to remind me of things not to do!
I also will throw some brief notes in it about how the beer develops over time… so in the future I can look back and tell what beers need to age longer than others. I can also note what I think would improve that particular recipe. Really cuts down on repeated mistakes……
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
Keep a detailed notebook.
Many of you probably already do this, but it’s worth mentioning.
my notebook, which contains all my recipes and notes for beer/wine/cider and mead, says mead on the front because that is the brand.
have used same notebook for years and everytime i see that i laugh.
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Calculations:
There are some really good software packages out there. I would have given anything to have had access to them when I first started out. But like I tell junior Engineers, “just because it’s on a computer screen don’t make it right”. And I’ll tell you all the same thing I tell them…. Learn how to do the calculations by hand…. All of them. It is important to know what is going on “under the hood” of the software. Look at the results, and do a “reasonability check”. When in doubt…. run the calculation by hand and see if it gives the same result (or at least reasonably close) if not, figure out why. It is a whole lot easier to spot a potential errant result if you know how the numbers are produced. (it also really impresses the ladies when you can formulate a recipe on a napkin at a pub)…..
The calculations are not particularly difficult, but do take a little practice. A good calculator is very helpful….. I use an old HP 11C (yes I’m old school, but for what I do for a living it’s the best dang one, anything ever happens to it and I’m retiring).
Doing everything by hand every batch may be a huge pain in the backside…. And I’m not suggesting you do…..But I can’t stress enough how important it is to at least understand how to do them…. Particularly, if you formulate your own recipes.
I used to do everything by hand of course, but when (free) software came out I started using it. I noticed very quickly that my actual results were much closer to my hand calculations than what the software was coming up with…. Mainly due to the information in the software’s data base (or so I think, I prefer that over “user error”)… So, being a closet geek…. I wrote up my own…. Just a spreadsheet, but I love it. I have made several revisions to it over time, and combined three or four spreadsheets together so I would have everything in one package. If anybody wants a copy, let me know, I’m happy to share.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
Calculations:
There are some really good software packages out there. I would have given anything to have had access to them when I first started out. But like I tell junior Engineers, “just because it’s on a computer screen don’t make it right”. And I’ll tell you all the same thing I tell them…. Learn how to do the calculations by hand…. All of them. It is important to know what is going on “under the hood” of the software. Look at the results, and do a “reasonability check”. When in doubt…. run the calculation by hand and see if it gives the same result (or at least reasonably close) if not, figure out why. It is a whole lot easier to spot a potential errant result if you know how the numbers are produced. (it also really impresses the ladies when you can formulate a recipe on a napkin at a pub)…..
The calculations are not particularly difficult, but do take a little practice. A good calculator is very helpful….. I use an old HP 11C (yes I’m old school, but for what I do for a living it’s the best dang one, anything ever happens to it and I’m retiring).
Doing everything by hand every batch may be a huge pain in the backside…. And I’m not suggesting you do…..But I can’t stress enough how important it is to at least understand how to do them…. Particularly, if you formulate your own recipes.
I used to do everything by hand of course, but when (free) software came out I started using it. I noticed very quickly that my actual results were much closer to my hand calculations than what the software was coming up with…. Mainly due to the information in the software’s data base (or so I think, I prefer that over “user error”)… So, being a closet geek…. I wrote up my own…. Just a spreadsheet, but I love it. I have made several revisions to it over time, and combined three or four spreadsheets together so I would have everything in one package. If anybody wants a copy, let me know, I’m happy to share.
i build, maintain and implement engineering software for a living... your spreadsheet is probably better than most of the free brewing software tools out there today. the ones i've played with (yes, you know which ones) are either a hodge-podge of little calculators without any semblance of a common data model or just flat out garbage that doesn't do what it is supposed to do. That said i have my own spread sheet, and of course for a few one off tools you can try the tools link in the header of the site. I'm posting tools as I create them.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
I might have to try your custom spreadsheet.
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The only disadvantage to mine is that I have to "look up" things like potential gravity and degrees L.... but I tend to get this from my supplier anyway.....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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RDWHAHB…..
There may be more to this than any of us think…..
If you are stressed out, angry, worried, grief-stricken, or just in a raw-ass bad mood….. don’t brew. In fact, it may not be a bad idea to just stay away from your beer entirely, except to drink it… If you are any of the above, you are going to be pre-occupied, and far more likely to skip something or just plain mess up.
Try to have a positive, confident attitude going into a brew day. It is not a bad idea to close your eyes and visualize everything first… especially if you are trying a new procedure or technique…. You need to be decisive, not hesitant or tentative. Not quite like a sports coach pumping up a team before a big game, but close to it.
Don’t rush things either… being in a big hurry is the surest way to guarantee you will screw up…. Give yourself plenty of time.
OK, that’s the practical side….. things start to get weird at this point….
Not very often, but it happens, I will brew a very mediocre beer…. Sometimes a re-brew of a beer that should have been awesome…. Not “bad”, just dull and lifeless. Looking back at my notes, the beer should have been great, nothing appears to evidence why a particular batch didn’t measure up. Every single time this has happened, usually during the first week of fermentation there was some kind of “event”, a big “knock-down-drag-out” with the wife, really upset about something at work, “neighbor issues”… whatever….. and I was around the fermenting beer with strong negative emotions… “Bad vibes” as we used to say back in the day….
Coincidence????? I sure hope so….. I am very skeptical of the “science” that has “proven” that plants react badly to strong negative human emotions (and yeast are plants…), but who the heck knows…..????? I don’t take any chances anymore, and I stay away if I’m “in a state”. No, I don’t play music for my beer, or read poetry to it, or talk to it like a baby…. Just trying to keep an open mind.….
On the funny side of this….. a while back my wife walked into the room I ferment in…. she accidently kicked one of the (many)empty bottles standing on the floor…. The domino effect dropped several (maybe thirty or so) bottles over with a huge amount of noise….
Her: *****!!! ******* bottles!... ****** ***********...!!!!
Me: (trying my best to keep a straight face) How DARE you use that kind of language around my beer!
Her: Yer an ********!!!
One thing I do know for sure…. A sense of humor is vital….. not only for brewing, but for life in general.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I don't know how I feel about that last one... but I'm in the same room as two fermenting beers, so I'll stay positive."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Dr_Jerryrigger said:
I don't know how I feel about that last one... but I'm in the same room as two fermenting beers, so I'll stay positive.
Not sure how I feel about it either....... just making an observation that there may be things we don't understand...... and hoping that the last part of that is total $%#*....
But I have some pretty good evidence that points in the direction of wierdness....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Back to the practical side…
Mash for flavor:
Not every beer should be brewed the same way, and you should tailor your technique based on the style you are brewing. In general however, here is how to squeeze more flavor out of a single infusion mash.
Give your mash a good stir every 10-15 minutes. Mash for at least an hour and a half. Theoretically, full conversion “should” occur in far less time…. Some say 15-minutes under the right conditions. The longer the grain is in contact with water, the more flavor comes out…. at least to a point.
A Fly Sparge may be more efficient at getting the residual sugars out of the mash tun, but leaves a lot of flavor behind. A “mash-out” with a long rest may be a big improvement if you Fly Sparge.
I Batch Sparge, so I skip the mash-out most of the time. The secret in batch Sparging is allowing for a longer rest. I will typically allow for a 30-min. rest (I sparge twice, and allow the 30-min. rest both times). And I stir often.
That’s it…. Very, very simple… but it makes a big difference.
I gave a very detailed description of how I do a decoction mash in the “Debacle thread” under recipes…. So I won’t repeat it all here…
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Another tip for bigger flavor…..
I used to be too embarrassed to mention this…. But before I invested in a propane burner and a 10-gallon brew pot… I used to do all grain batches on my kitchen stove (gas). All I had was three stock-pots. The largest would barely hold 3-gallons. So I did what I called a “Party-guile” boil. The first runnings in one pot… the second in another, and the third in yet another. I chilled each pot individually in the kitchen sink, and then joined them all together in the fermenter…. (yes, hop utilization was a bear to figure out) As crude and crazy as this sounds…. I brewed some awesome beer this way… When I took the plunge and moved to a one pot full boil, I noticed a big difference in my beer…. It wasn’t as good…. What the heck?.... shouldn’t it be better???
After some head scratching I figured out a way to replicate the increased flavor with one pot.
After draining the first runnings, immediately put the pot on the heat to boil. It doesn’t have to boil hard or long, (you are not after kettle caramelzation) just long enough to “break”…. 5 or ten minutes is good enough. For some reason boiling the super-duper high gravity first runnings alone brings out stronger malt flavor. Almost, but not quite, the same effect as a decoction mash.
I will also put the pot back on the heat after the second runnings. The cool thing about this is the added benefit of reducing the time it takes to bring the entire wort to boil later.
This method of course, is not appropriate if you want to First Wort Hop…. (but you could always boil a gallon or two of the first runnings separately….).
Also….. it doesn’t hurt to get some of the “break” and hop residue from the boil pot into the fermenter… I know some people obsess about not getting any of it….. I make sure I get some, not all of it by any stretch, but beer seems to end up a little better if some of it goes in. Besides, it will all settle out anyway…
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Ah, the three pot boil. I did that for some time, but back then my beer sucked. Mostly an ingredient problem, and the house I was living in was full infections.
I made a beer about a month ago that wouldn't fit in one carboy. So I split it, the second one I poured ended up with all the junk at the bottom of the kettle (I hate pellet hops, but was using them). Anyway I bottled them the same day, and I could tell them apart... well some bottles ended up with some hop scum in them, I could tell those ones apart."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Like I said.... you don't want ALL of it.... just some... as in way less than half... if you had "hop scum"... must have had a ton of hops in that batch.....
I hated the three pot boil.... house was 150 degrees.......... in the winter...Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
Like I said.... you don't want ALL of it.... just some... as in way less than half... if you had "hop scum"... must have had a ton of hops in that batch.....
I hated the three pot boil.... house was 150 degrees.......... in the winter...
my wife gets mad about that. in the winter i do stove top 5 gallon batches. the thermostat is in the same room, so the rest of the house gets chilly while the kitchen/living room is toasty warm.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
ceannt said:Dr_Jerryrigger said:
I don't know how I feel about that last one... but I'm in the same room as two fermenting beers, so I'll stay positive.
Not sure how I feel about it either....... just making an observation that there may be things we don't understand...... and hoping that the last part of that is total $%#*....
But I have some pretty good evidence that points in the direction of wierdness....
as a botanist, all i will say is much evidence points to plants being able to sense our emotions on some level. although most people tend to think they are able to pick up on our own nonverbal scent stuff, like pheremones and things. they have the receptors for that, as it is how they "communicate" with each other; that is a fact. define "communicate" though and things get tricky.
brew a ten gal batch, and split it into two five gal fermentors. yell at one, love another. see what happens..... -
this gets further complicated because yeast aren't plants.
truly, we don't really know what the hell they are. part fungus and part animal is the current thinking.
another weird thing along the same lines, fungus is closer to an animal than to a plant. -
Interesting...... my college biology textbook referred to the little guys as "Primitive single celled plants, one of the oldest organisms on earth"..... my how things change...Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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Don’ be afraid to experiment….
In fact it is a good idea to do at least one experimental beer a year. And by experimental, I mean really out there. I do an annual “Summer Wacky Beer” every year.. and some of these have turned out to be just magic. I have used ingredients that I would never otherwise even consider this way. Don’t go off half cocked….. do some research, think it through, and plan the batch carefully. This type of thing forces you into thinking, and keeps a guy out of a rut with brewing….
Along the same lines, remember that the Style Guidelines are just that….. guidelines….. and it’s OK to stray away a bit or push the envelope….. even for “non-experimental” Beers.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
With regards to experimentation I think I am going to try a hot pepper ber this year. Just not sure exactly what yet. porter, stout or ipa base is my start.
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I haven't tried a hoppy pepper beer yet........ (hint, hint...)Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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Just a little thing but....
Wear shoes on Brew Day....
sandals and bare feet are not a good idea.... boiling wort splashed on top of feet is very painful.... and if I have learned anything..... Pain HURTS!Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Recipe development.
For me, a third of the fun in brewing is the development of recipes….. on an equal footing with brewing, and drinking it. There are few things more gratifying than drinking an awesome beer that you have not only brewed, but conceived the idea for.
Much of recipe development can not be taught…. Experience and practice are the way to go… but I can give a few words of advice…..
Keep it simple….. don’t be throwing things in there just to throw them in….. every grain type and hop variety should be there for a very specific purpose… and sometimes a little editing is the most important step.
Do some serious research…… look at 20 or 30 different recipes of the style you want… many of them will be “wrong”…. Some will be great… often it’s hard to tell the difference. Look for common threads. Look at the different ingredients and try to determine why it’s there. Read up on the various grains and base malts, and what they can contribute.
The Guidelines can be very helpful, and the ingredient suggestions are a good place to start. Just don’t be too obsessed with trying to meet them exactly.
Don’t be afraid to brew a batch that just doesn’t measure up to your standards….. learn from your mistakes, and make adjustments accordingly.
Develop a “point of view”. You want people to know it’s one of yours, no matter what style. Take a style and make it yours…
In spite of everything I’ve said…… I do have some strong opinions about a few styles…. (I wouldn’t be a brewer if I didn’t!).
For example…. It burns me up when I see folks putting crystal malt in a Scottish Strong Ale….. a “Wee Heavy” should only have two things in it… Golden promise Malt and Roasted barley…. The sweetness is all Kettle caramelzation…. (It’s OK to have a touch of Peat smoked malt in there, as long as it’s limited to one ounce per 5-gallon batch…. But no more). An Irish Red Ale has to have a bit of roasted barley in there, say 3- 5 ounces per 5-gallon batch…. Or it’s not an “Irish” red ale, it’s something else, and should be called something else. Dark Crystal and such may come close to the “red” color, but just does not give the characteristic dry finish that defines the style. (should be malty sweet up front also). I use a flavorful base malt… Maris Otter usually, but Optic & Golden Promise are awesome…. And typically 2 Crystal malts… a light and a medium dark in equal amounts, with the Roasted Barley.
Just my opinions….. I probably would drive some folks to drink with how I have “abused” other styles… (more like “butchered”)so basically brew what you like, and heck with everybody else….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
I probably would drive some folks to drink with how I have “abused” other styles… (more like “butchered”)so basically brew what you like, and heck with everybody else….
this. all day long.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
Yeast:
OK, I’ll admit it…. I use dry yeast. For one thing, when I started brewing it was all that was available, and I’m most comfortable with it. Back in the day Red Star, Edme and the horrible stuff that was under the lids of cans of LME was about it. It was very limiting. I used the Edme when I could, and that is probably why I started down the path of normally brewing English beer styles. Today, the available strains of yeast are almost unlimited, at least in liquid form.
Maybe it’s just bad luck, but I have not been very successful in getting liquid yeast. The couple of times I have tried, it was not viable when it got to me. It never failed to either freeze solid, or bake in 100-plus degree conditions on the way to me…. A UPS truck apparently is not a very good environment for liquid yeast…. If there was a decent local homebrew supply store near to me, perhaps I would be more inclined to use it… but.
Also, I am an opportunistic brewer… and I seldom have the luxury of planning a brew day with enough prior “notice” to properly do a starter. I feel that a starter also just about doubles your odds of getting an infection.
Things have really looked up as far as the dry yeast scene is concerned though…
I absolutely love S-04…. And between it, S-05, K-97, T-58 and Notty, I can pretty much brew anything I want to. And I’m not above mixing strains together either….. if I feel that a particular style warrants it. (by the way…. Champagne yeast and a half pack of T-58 makes wonderful Mead)
I can start a brew day on the spur of the moment…. with no need to wait for a starter.
I rehydrate my yeast in about a cup of 80-90 degree water for around a half hour to 45 minutes. I put a paper towel over it, and leave it the heck alone until I’m ready to pitch. I stir it in well when I pitch. I normally see signs that fermentation is starting in 2 to 4 hours.
I would really like to get set up to culture my own, and start a yeast bank, but until I make the plunge into all that, I’m happy with my little arsenal of dried strains.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
INteresting thoughts on yeast. I have been trying to convert more to the dry yeast just cause of cost.
What I find most interesting is your thoughts around doubling risk of infection. How so? -
jlw said:
INteresting thoughts on yeast. I have been trying to convert more to the dry yeast just cause of cost.
What I find most interesting is your thoughts around doubling risk of infection. How so?
you're exposing it to the air twice as many times.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
and to a second (smaller) fermenter, which could be harboring contaminants.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
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That's what I figured but wanted to ground my assumptions.
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Pretty much.....
I like to keep things as "contained" as possible....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
Open fermenters worked for thousands of years of brewing. And were even used for a great deal of time after yeast was identified as a thing. I've read some old directions that basically said "add yeast to an open bucket, give it 2 days, then rack to a barrel, put a rag over the hole."
I can't see the yeast available being as clean as white labs, so there is that aspect. But I have found it's hard for bugs to take over if yeast has a good footing. I've been sloppy with starters many times an never had one infected. I think this is because I am pitching a lot of yeast for the 1-3L starters. Then again when pitching that into the beer I'm dumping a lot of yeast for the size of the batch, and I haven't had problems.
When I first started brewing I was trying to be cheap with yeast and was using 1gal carboys. So I'd split half a pack of Notty between 3 jugs and infections followed. The yeast did get going after time and maked a drink that had alcohol, bud not a good one."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
See my previous comments regarding sanitation……
All I’m saying is that you have about the same chance of infection in the starter as in the actual beer. In some cases more of a chance….. I’ve seen guys that basically do an “open fermenter” with their starters… just putting some aluminum foil over the top of a flask. Still a slim chance, kind of like buying two lottery tickets instead of just one…. I have also seen guys that just pour the starter into the wort without sanitizing the mouth of the flask first… seems risky as shucks to me, all kinds of bad stuff could grow there without otherwise affecting the starter….but then again, I too am guilty of over obsessing about sanitation……
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
See my previous comments regarding sanitation……
All I’m saying is that you have about the same chance of infection in the starter as in the actual beer. In some cases more of a chance….. I’ve seen guys that basically do an “open fermenter” with their starters… just putting some aluminum foil over the top of a flask. Still a slim chance, kind of like buying two lottery tickets instead of just one…. I have also seen guys that just pour the starter into the wort without sanitizing the mouth of the flask first… seems risky as shucks to me, all kinds of bad stuff could grow there without otherwise affecting the starter….but then again, I too am guilty of over obsessing about sanitation……
i've done no chill plenty of times and i've had it get 'contaminated'. i'm pretty sure it was a wild yeast that snuck in with my starter, as it didn't leave any of the telltale infection tastes.
5 gallons of boiling wort directly in the fermenter is a pretty good assurance than there is nothing alive in there. the bugs had to come from somewhere...The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
ceannt said:
See my previous comments regarding sanitation……
All I’m saying is that you have about the same chance of infection in the starter as in the actual beer. In some cases more of a chance….. I’ve seen guys that basically do an “open fermenter” with their starters… just putting some aluminum foil over the top of a flask. Still a slim chance, kind of like buying two lottery tickets instead of just one…. I have also seen guys that just pour the starter into the wort without sanitizing the mouth of the flask first… seems risky as shucks to me, all kinds of bad stuff could grow there without otherwise affecting the starter….but then again, I too am guilty of over obsessing about sanitation……
I was jumping to the conclusion that there is a lower chance in a starter with two packs of yeast, than in 5gal with two packs of yeast. So if that's true it would be something like 2 chances in 100 rather than one chance in 50 (though those numbers are completely BS)
Could be wrong, you've been brewing for as long as I've been alive.... But in my limited experience, it seems a strong, quick starting fermentation is the best infection prevention.
"I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
I agree... I would just rather have that happen in my fermenter.... (2 in 100, and 1 in 50, are equal odds.... :) ... ) there is probably more risk in the "transfer" than anywhere else.... I kicked around the idea of doing a starter in my fermenter, and just putting the wort on top of it when ready.... never figured out how to properly aerate it though.... or how to keep air-borne nasties out of the mix while aerating......Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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For starters, I just use a big ol pickle jar from costco. Put a piece of foil over the the top and give it a shake when I walk by. Then just pitch the whole thing in the fermenter and rack on top.
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ceannt said:
I agree... I would just rather have that happen in my fermenter.... (2 in 100, and 1 in 50, are equal odds.... :) ... ) there is probably more risk in the "transfer" than anywhere else.... I kicked around the idea of doing a starter in my fermenter, and just putting the wort on top of it when ready.... never figured out how to properly aerate it though.... or how to keep air-borne nasties out of the mix while aerating......
i had rigged up a disposable airstone to a small o2 bottle. hardest part is getting it to stay at the bottom (a little brass pipe or similar will weight it down.)The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
ceannt said:
I agree... I would just rather have that happen in my fermenter.... (2 in 100, and 1 in 50, are equal odds.... :) ... ) there is probably more risk in the "transfer" than anywhere else.... I kicked around the idea of doing a starter in my fermenter, and just putting the wort on top of it when ready.... never figured out how to properly aerate it though.... or how to keep air-borne nasties out of the mix while aerating......
Yeah, the transfer is the danger part. I like the idea of a starter in the carboy. As long as you really chill your wort to the right temp before dumping it should work great.
This might sound crazy but You don't need to aerate to have a good fermentation the presents of O2 makes yeast reproduce at a higher rate (and not make ethanol) but if you have a big enough starter it won't make a real difference either way... maybe you'll get a bigger yeast cake on the aerated one..."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Aeration is good practice for starters. The whole point of starters is to get cell count up so anything you can do to promote cell growth is beneficial.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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Lakewood said:
Aeration is good practice for starters. The whole point of starters is to get cell count up so anything you can do to promote cell growth is beneficial.
That is what I have always believed.....
Sounds like a good experiment project for someone.....
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:Lakewood said:
Aeration is good practice for starters. The whole point of starters is to get cell count up so anything you can do to promote cell growth is beneficial.
That is what I have always believed.....
Sounds like a good experiment project for someone.....
There is data on the subject. A stir plated seems to be the best method for getting a high cell count, though a good shake every time you walk by does a good job too. I think an O2 tank with a slow stream into the flask/carboy that was on a stir plat would be a step up from that.
Any way, it'll be a wile till I get my lab up and running (scored a really big HEPA filter unit for free, will put it in a flow hood when the chickens are out of my work shop). But I do plan on some experimenting, and maybe getting some side jobs from local breweries."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Dr_Jerryrigger said:ceannt said:Lakewood said:
Aeration is good practice for starters. The whole point of starters is to get cell count up so anything you can do to promote cell growth is beneficial.
That is what I have always believed.....
Sounds like a good experiment project for someone.....
There is data on the subject. A stir plated seems to be the best method for getting a high cell count, though a good shake every time you walk by does a good job too. I think an O2 tank with a slow stream into the flask/carboy that was on a stir plat would be a step up from that.
Any way, it'll be a wile till I get my lab up and running (scored a really big HEPA filter unit for free, will put it in a flow hood when the chickens are out of my work shop). But I do plan on some experimenting, and maybe getting some side jobs from local breweries.
i'd look at the commercial / lab propagators that are out there to get a good idea on what really matters for healthy cell production.
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Ye old Plastic versus Glass debate:
Homebrewers have been arguing over this as long as I have been brewing…. Sometimes downright violently. Bottom line is…. It really doesn’t matter…. Use what you are comfortable with, and what works for you.
I use a plastic bucket fermenter that I have had since the mid-1980s. I used to have three, but two of them developed cracks around the top, and had to be “retired”. I use one of them for a bottling bucket. The one I use is the “old” style, with no o-rings, and has a hole drilled in the lid for a rubber stopper. The hole is the perfect size to stick my “dedicated wort transfer device” (a turkey baster) into for gravity samples. It is permanently stained from many batches of very dark beers. It has enough head space that I never worry about needing a blowoff tube. I don’t worry about permeability issues (absolutely insignificant), and it limits light. I had a glass carboy once, and found that cleaning a “hop ring” out of it was an intense pain in the back-side, and it was heavy….. I now have a “better bottle” carboy that I use for cider and mead. (oh, the glass one was lost in the “Great Lager disaster of 1991”.)
So use what ever works best for you, and leave the debate to those who have nothing better to do than argue….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I've used the buckets, better bottles, and glass carboys. they're all good. I have yet to use a stainless fermenter, but that's only because of the $$$$.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
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I use stainless steel Sanke kegs as fermenters. The only appreciable difference (besides size) is the ability to transfer using pressure. I no longer have to rely on gravity for racking, so its faster and doesn't require me to move a 10gal batch of beer around to get it above the receiving vessel. Other than that... Who cares.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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I have always wanted to use Sanke kegs...... just can't seem to get my hands on a couple...
My Greatgranddaddy used big 20-gallon ceramic crocks.... covered with cheesecloth....
@Lakewood.... how are your kegs set up for fermenting??? I've seen a few ways to do it, and most have "issues", at least to me...... be a good "how to" thread for you.....Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:
I have always wanted to use Sanke kegs...... just can't seem to get my hands on a couple...
ayup. same here. i'd like a couple for a boil kettle/hlt as well.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
I picked them up from a local microbrewery. I just called and they said I could pick up a few they were getting ready to scrap.
The basic setup is simple, just a 2" triclover cover with a racking cane sticking through it and a second tube for blow-off and pressurization when transferring. The design is mostly limited by my machining ability. I could improve it, but I'd need some tools I don't have.
I'll post a build if I haven't already.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:
I picked them up from a local microbrewery. I just called and they said I could pick up a few they were getting ready to scrap.
The basic setup is simple, just a 2" triclover cover with a racking cane sticking through it and a second tube for blow-off and pressurization when transferring. The design is mostly limited by my machining ability. I could improve it, but I'd need some tools I don't have.
I'll post a build if I haven't already.
i contacted my local breweries, but they lease their kegs. >:P
i haven't tried goose island yet. they're just a drive into the city, but now that they're owned by inbev i don't know how homebrewer friendly they'll be.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
I picked them up from a local microbrewery. I just called and they said I could pick up a few they were getting ready to scrap.
The basic setup is simple, just a 2" triclover cover with a racking cane sticking through it and a second tube for blow-off and pressurization when transferring. The design is mostly limited by my machining ability. I could improve it, but I'd need some tools I don't have.
I'll post a build if I haven't already.
i contacted my local breweries, but they lease their kegs. >:P
i haven't tried goose island yet. they're just a drive into the city, but now that they're owned by inbev i don't know how homebrewer friendly they'll be.
I tried one of the local breweries here and they said they never get rid of any kegs. If damaged the fix. If they can;t be fixed the convert them into grills or use to brew small yesy batches.
:-L -
jlw said:FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
I picked them up from a local microbrewery. I just called and they said I could pick up a few they were getting ready to scrap.
The basic setup is simple, just a 2" triclover cover with a racking cane sticking through it and a second tube for blow-off and pressurization when transferring. The design is mostly limited by my machining ability. I could improve it, but I'd need some tools I don't have.
I'll post a build if I haven't already.
i contacted my local breweries, but they lease their kegs. >:P
i haven't tried goose island yet. they're just a drive into the city, but now that they're owned by inbev i don't know how homebrewer friendly they'll be.
I tried one of the local breweries here and they said they never get rid of any kegs. If damaged the fix. If they can;t be fixed the convert them into grills or use to brew small yesy batches.
:-L
That's what I have run into...... either leased, or "never get rid of"....... I've thought about driving by college dorms, and seeing if any are sitting out in the yard.... if someone comes out and protests, just say "I'm with the ATF, I need this for evidence in an under age drinking investigation".......Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
ceannt said:jlw said:FromZwolle said:Lakewood said:
I picked them up from a local microbrewery. I just called and they said I could pick up a few they were getting ready to scrap.
The basic setup is simple, just a 2" triclover cover with a racking cane sticking through it and a second tube for blow-off and pressurization when transferring. The design is mostly limited by my machining ability. I could improve it, but I'd need some tools I don't have.
I'll post a build if I haven't already.
i contacted my local breweries, but they lease their kegs. >:P
i haven't tried goose island yet. they're just a drive into the city, but now that they're owned by inbev i don't know how homebrewer friendly they'll be.
I tried one of the local breweries here and they said they never get rid of any kegs. If damaged the fix. If they can;t be fixed the convert them into grills or use to brew small yesy batches.
:-L
That's what I have run into...... either leased, or "never get rid of"....... I've thought about driving by college dorms, and seeing if any are sitting out in the yard.... if someone comes out and protests, just say "I'm with the ATF, I need this for evidence in an under age drinking investigation".......
just wear a tweed jacket and start yelling things about double secret probation.The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake -
It's a $35 deposit (+ or - $5) for one. You could just hang out by the liqueur store looking for people to bringing them back. Or just get one of PBR ($32 plus deposit)"I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Dr_Jerryrigger said:
It's a $35 deposit (+ or - $5) for one. You could just hang out by the liqueur store looking for people to bringing them back. Or just get one of PBR ($32 plus deposit)
I can't imagine what you would do with all of that PBR.
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
Lakewood said:Dr_Jerryrigger said:
It's a $35 deposit (+ or - $5) for one. You could just hang out by the liqueur store looking for people to bringing them back. Or just get one of PBR ($32 plus deposit)
I can't imagine what you would do with all of that PBR.
id water my garden with it aint good for nothin elseAin't that a Bitch -
Hey, PBR isn't that bad as cheap beer goes. I don't think I could drink a half bbl of it in less than a years time. Maybe freeze concentrate it until it has some flavor?
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Lothos said:Lakewood said:Dr_Jerryrigger said:
It's a $35 deposit (+ or - $5) for one. You could just hang out by the liqueur store looking for people to bringing them back. Or just get one of PBR ($32 plus deposit)
I can't imagine what you would do with all of that PBR.
id water my garden with it aint good for nothin else
Might be able to use it as top off water I guess
The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny -
I guess you could top off with it, but it does have that slight piss flavor. That's actually why I like it; for a cheap beer it has a flavor, not a good one, but something.
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I just don't want to spend +/- $70 on a keg........ and I want at least two......Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
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Yeah, i dont think i would have my system if i had to pay for the kehs to begin with. I ended up getting 5 kegs. Still have one in original condition.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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The “secret” to really good Beer:
There is no single “secret”….. great beer comes from a combination of things…..
Quality ingredients…. Always use the highest quality ingredients available…. And don’t use an ingredient just because it’s cheaper. If a style needs Maris Otter, Golden Promise, Belgian Pils, etc. don’t use plain 2-row barley just because it shaves a few bucks off the cost of a batch. If a key ingredient is not available right now…. Hold off and brew something else until it is.
Look at each batch/style, and adapt the brewing process to go with that particular beer. And I’m not just referring to Mash temperatures either…. You can take the exact same ingredients and brew at least three totally different beers with them….. same grain bill, same hops/hop additions, same yeast, same water. If a beer will benefit from a decoction mash, do one….. If a beer has a lot of oatmeal or flaked barley, etc. in it…. give it a protein rest and do a step mash…. If a beer has mostly Pilsner Malt in it, do at least a 90-min. boil at almost a “simmer”….. be adaptable, be versatile. Do the research, and brew accordingly.
Equipment…. Great beer has nothing to do with how much cash a guy throws into his equipment… often, the simpler the set-up, the more versatile it is. Now, I’m just like any other guy, and have a fondness for gadgets and cool set ups…. But have always had trouble justifying the expense, and would rather spend my hard earned dollars on ingredients…
I had an eye opening experience about three years ago, when a girl I worked with took me to a friend’s house in Leesburg VA after work one day. … He had the most awesome set-up I have ever seen…. Not only did he have a smoking hot wife…. His brewery was almost as big as my whole house…. He had a four tiered stand with motorized pulleys to raise and lower each tier (motorcycle chains, wow)…. Three propane burners (they went up and down with each tier), probe thermostats, and a control panel that looked like it came off a fighter jet … even had a water line running to his hot liquor tank (controlled form the panel of course). He could have done everything by gravity, but I saw at least two pumps. He did everything in Sanke kegs, must have had 20 of ‘em. He had a walk in fermentation chamber with three separate chambers… individually controlled… He kegged, and had 7-taps at his bar (I would kill to just have his bar… wow… I have been in pubs that were not near as nice) There was a control panel on the wall behind the bar that regulated each tap individually, and had dials to show the pressure of each tap…. I was just about as green with envy as a guy could get…. Then I had some of his beer….. it was “OK”…. nothing to write home about. The next day my co-worker asked me what I thought…. I raved about his set-up, and how freaking awesome it was…. She smiled and said… ”Yeah, it’s pretty cool…… I would never tell him this, but….. your beer is a whole lot better than his”.
So….. great beer comes from quality ingredients, the “right” ingredients, good technique, the process used, patience, skill, thorough research, and as with anything else… a little luck never hurts….
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity. -
I truly save money by brewing (if you don't count my time). Not much savings, but all my equipment has paid for it's self a few times over and I've only been brewing for a few years. Now that I know this, I can't see spending much on new equipment. It would be nice to have some stuff, but I can't help but look at it as a business with one customer.
Big home brew rigs are cool, but will never pay for themselves, not in 10 lifetimes. Oh yeah, and like Ceannt said; it doesn;t make for better beer. As long as you have the basics, no new equipment will effect the quality."I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
I would like to go to a single tier just so I can easily do bigger batches. Honestly, I probably never will though. I don't have a place for that set up and I really know my equipment now.
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The brew rig is fun, but it certainly doesn't make better beer. They can make it a little easier, but even that's debateable.The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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woo, post 100"I don't have TP, but I do have ammo."
-Some guy in Ohio -
Observations about Extract brewing:
Unlike a lot of all grain brewers, I am not a bit snobbish about extract brewing…. I brewed with extract for years….. and a guy can make some absolutely awesome beer with it. I only went to all grain for the control…… I want to control EVERYTHING about my beer, and just never looked back. There are a few styles that are near impossible to do justice to with extract, but with some creativity, and the right steeping grains, most beers can be pulled off, and pulled off well.
I figured out a few secrets to extract brewing that made a huge difference…..
Use fresh extract….. buy it in bulk from someplace with a large turn-around…. Stay away from the cans…. And keep it in the fridge… use it as soon as possible…
Only use plain “light” extract, and get everything else from steeping grains. Steeping grains is really easy, and requires no additional equipment, I used to steep in a pot and just run everything through a strainer. (I used to do partial mash brews the same way, putting the pot in the oven, pre-heated to my target mash temperature.)
One little thing I figured out is to only use about a pound of DME with my steeping grains “runoff” for the boil, and add the remainder with 15-minutes left in the boil. (I normally used LME for the late addition). This does wonders for hop utilization, and adding the LME late helps eliminate the potential for “twang”. Kind of a pain to calculate IBU’s, because you have to figure the boil volume/gravity and batch volume/gravity separate, but well worth the effort (and back then I did everything by hand). I used to do an English IPA this way, and I would put that beer up against any, several people actually called me a liar when I told them it was an extract beer. It’s a very simple process in practice, and makes a big difference.
Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
