Off Flavors
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Brewed the orange blossom kolsh again. Day two the air lock blew off, forgot to use blow off tube. I cleaned, reattached and hoped for the best. Kegged last night and tasted. Has an alcohol taste, sort of cidery. Not great, and nothing like the last batch. This one is much more clear however. There was a layer of fine sediment on the bottom and another layer of larger sediment on that. Sort of like little round, tube like sediment. Weird. What do you think? Infected? I put on gas to see what happens.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    infection, maybe. but you'd have to wait for a while and see if the off flavor gets any worse. right now it could just be the product of a ferment that was a little too aggressive.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I used a starter and fermented at 66F. I was looking for cooler, but last time it was warmer.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    the beer itself was at 66 or the ambient temp?
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    The carboy thermometer read 66. It was in my converted fridge ferm chamber.
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    How long did you leave it in Primary?
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    FromZwolle said:

    infection, maybe. but you'd have to wait for a while and see if the off flavor gets any worse. right now it could just be the product of a ferment that was a little too aggressive.


    I wouldn't jump to infection just yet. It may just take a little longer for the flavors to meld. Age heals a lot of mistakes in brewing. I wouldn't worry. Also if your carboy thermometer read 66* I would guess actual fermentation temps were a little higher.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    ceannt said:

    How long did you leave it in Primary?



    I'm too lazy to go get my notes now, but between three-four weeks. Only in primary, I gave up racking. I started at 1.062, finished at 1.010.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    jlw said:

    FromZwolle said:

    infection, maybe. but you'd have to wait for a while and see if the off flavor gets any worse. right now it could just be the product of a ferment that was a little too aggressive.


    I wouldn't jump to infection just yet. It may just take a little longer for the flavors to meld. Age heals a lot of mistakes in brewing. I wouldn't worry. Also if your carboy thermometer read 66* I would guess actual fermentation temps were a little higher.


    My concern with that is the last time I brewed it I didn't have these flavored at kegging. All was the same except for the blown air lock.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    jlw said:

    FromZwolle said:

    infection, maybe. but you'd have to wait for a while and see if the off flavor gets any worse. right now it could just be the product of a ferment that was a little too aggressive.


    I wouldn't jump to infection just yet. It may just take a little longer for the flavors to meld. Age heals a lot of mistakes in brewing. I wouldn't worry. Also if your carboy thermometer read 66* I would guess actual fermentation temps were a little higher.


    My concern with that is the last time I brewed it I didn't have these flavored at kegging. All was the same except for the blown air lock.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    the clarity of the beer, while by no means definitive, makes me feel much less inclined to think infection. *most* infections have the opposite effect on the clarity.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    FromZwolle said:

    the clarity of the beer, while by no means definitive, makes me feel much less inclined to think infection. *most* infections have the opposite effect on the clarity.



    This was my thought as well. Of course you can bottle it and send it all to me just to be safe.

    In all seriousness, blown airlock and hot alcohol flavors are indicators of a hot/fast ferment, not really of an infection.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    The last time I brewed it, I think it was warmer, but I could be wrong. It was before I had a chamber.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    Benvarine said:

    The last time I brewed it, I think it was warmer, but I could be wrong. It was before I had a chamber.


    There are lots of factors that play into the fermentation pace. A larger O2 load or nutrient balance could make the yeast work faster and create more waste heat than the last go.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Benvarine said:

    The last time I brewed it, I think it was warmer, but I could be wrong. It was before I had a chamber.



    are you using a thermowell and temp controller? If not you may want to look into the investment.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I've heard on an episode on the BN, the difference between the tape thermometer and a thermowell is around 0.5F. Seems pretty minute.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Benvarine said:

    I've heard on an episode on the BN, the difference between the tape thermometer and a thermowell is around 0.5F. Seems pretty minute.



    interesting. I have read it can vary by degrees.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    jlw said:

    Benvarine said:

    I've heard on an episode on the BN, the difference between the tape thermometer and a thermowell is around 0.5F. Seems pretty minute.



    interesting. I have read it can vary by degrees.


    It's gonna depend on the size/shape of the ferm vessel but I would think it could be a degree or two during peak fermentation. The difference between the air temp in the chamber and the wort temp could be a lot more than that. I'd put money on 5 degrees easy during peak fermentation.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Lakewood said:

    jlw said:

    Benvarine said:

    I've heard on an episode on the BN, the difference between the tape thermometer and a thermowell is around 0.5F. Seems pretty minute.



    interesting. I have read it can vary by degrees.


    It's gonna depend on the size/shape of the ferm vessel but I would think it could be a degree or two during peak fermentation. The difference between the air temp in the chamber and the wort temp could be a lot more than that. I'd put money on 5 degrees easy during peak fermentation.


    this is what I'm thinking as well. @lakewood we should do a study with folks that use temp control and a thermowell and record actual versus ambient.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    @everyone (wouldn't it be cool if that worked) who has a thermowell in their fermenters around here?
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    @everyone

    what is a thermowell?
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    During peak ferment, the wort/beer is churning like crazy. I would think the temp is pretty consistent throughout.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,448
    Lakewood said:

    @everyone (wouldn't it be cool if that worked) who has a thermowell in their fermenters around here?


    That would rock. And I don't, but I will with a ferm chamber.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,448
    Benvarine said:

    During peak ferment, the wort/beer is churning like crazy. I would think the temp is pretty consistent throughout.



    Well sure. But a crystal strip thermometer on the OUTSIDE of the fermenter would vary from the exact center of the vessel. How much is arguable. I expect up to 5 degrees. But I smell an experiment.....
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    frydogbrews said:

    @everyone

    what is a thermowell?



    Thermowell is a stainless tube you drop into the wort then a temp probe inside of it that is connected to you temp controller. So your ferm chamber is maintaining a temp based on the temp of the fermenting beer not ambient.
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    I'm going to start keeping data on both temps starting with next beer.
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,448
    jlw said:

    I'm going to start keeping data on both temps starting with next beer.


    This would be great.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    Benvarine said:

    During peak ferment, the wort/beer is churning like crazy. I would think the temp is pretty consistent throughout.



    funny thing is, the reason its churning like hell is mostly due to convection currents caused by the thermal difference between the interior fluid and the fluid at the walls where it is being cooled.... that's why it's rising in the middle and sinking along the walls of the fermenter. the bigger the temp difference, the faster it moves. so when its going crazy, it's usually a pretty big temp delta.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    If you use a thermowell, would you be dropping a thermometer inside to read the internal temp? The ambient temp in this experiment does not matter as much. We want to know if the interior temp is different than the exterior temp. Right? I don't have a thermowell. Usually you put the temp controller probe inside, but in this case would that tell us what we need to know?
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    Benvarine said:

    If you use a thermowell, would you be dropping a thermometer inside to read the internal temp? The ambient temp in this experiment does not matter as much. We want to know if the interior temp is different than the exterior temp. Right? I don't have a thermowell. Usually you put the temp controller probe inside, but in this case would that tell us what we need to know?



    thermowell just keeps the probe from getting wet (most probes are thermocouples and getting wet, especially in a high electrolyte fluid, will trash any readings) it's basically just a tube with one end closed that sticks down into the middle of the fermenter.. but getting a thermometer into the center of the fermenting wort, no matter how yo do it, will provide good results.

    make sure you calibrate the thermometer on the outside and inside with at least one data point to ensure they are reading the same.

    i like the idea of tracking the three readings since it will answer more questions.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • LothosLothos
    Posts: 2,146
    Benvarine said:

    Brewed the orange blossom kolsh again. Day two the air lock blew off, forgot to use blow off tube. I cleaned, reattached and hoped for the best. Kegged last night and tasted. Has an alcohol taste, sort of cidery. Not great, and nothing like the last batch. This one is much more clear however. There was a layer of fine sediment on the bottom and another layer of larger sediment on that. Sort of like little round, tube like sediment. Weird. What do you think? Infected? I put on gas to see what happens.



    did you add the vodka to the batch or more than 3 ozs of orange zest to the primary?
    Ain't that a Bitch
  • scoobscoob
    Posts: 16,617
    I don't have a thermowell, I insulate the temp probe from ambient temp and secure it to the side of the fermenter.

    I do monitor chamber temp though, the set temp is 60 on my APA, it isn't unusual to see chamber temps of 52-55 degrees when I have checked
    Jesus didn't wear pants
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    Lothos said:

    Benvarine said:

    Brewed the orange blossom kolsh again. Day two the air lock blew off, forgot to use blow off tube. I cleaned, reattached and hoped for the best. Kegged last night and tasted. Has an alcohol taste, sort of cidery. Not great, and nothing like the last batch. This one is much more clear however. There was a layer of fine sediment on the bottom and another layer of larger sediment on that. Sort of like little round, tube like sediment. Weird. What do you think? Infected? I put on gas to see what happens.



    did you add the vodka to the batch or more than 3 ozs of orange zest to the primary?


    I added only the orange zest, no vodka. I didn't weigh it, it is a small amount.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    azscoob said:

    I don't have a thermowell, I insulate the temp probe from ambient temp and secure it to the side of the fermenter.

    I do monitor chamber temp though, the set temp is 60 on my APA, it isn't unusual to see chamber temps of 52-55 degrees when I have checked



    I tape my temp controller to the Carboy, but only use the actual temp on the controller as a reference. I use a combination of the crystal Carboy thermometer tape and a thermometer next to the Carboy as a reference and guide to control my analog Johnson control.
  • BenvarineBenvarine
    Posts: 1,606
    I tasted the Kolsh tonight. Good stuff. A couple days seemed to change a lot. A week ago it was undrinkable.
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,600
    Awesome!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    Benvarine said:

    I tasted the Kolsh tonight. Good stuff. A couple days seemed to change a lot. A week ago it was undrinkable.



    perfect timing!!
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    Good to hear!
  • ceanntceannt
    Posts: 53,828
    Time is a beers best friend .... kind of like girls and distance ...
    Never attribute to malice, that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    Benvarine said:

    I tasted the Kolsh tonight. Good stuff. A couple days seemed to change a lot. A week ago it was undrinkable.



    and in time for the party, good news!
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    i'll try to get some of my infection thread together tonight. it'll hopefully clear up a little of this type of confusion.
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • jlwjlw
    Posts: 16,454
    FromZwolle said:

    i'll try to get some of my infection thread together tonight. it'll hopefully clear up a little of this type of confusion.



    We don't care about what happened to you in college.
  • FuzzyFuzzy
    Posts: 49,656
    jlw said:

    FromZwolle said:

    i'll try to get some of my infection thread together tonight. it'll hopefully clear up a little of this type of confusion.



    We don't care about what happened to you in college.


    your wife seemed pretty concerned when she found out. B-)
    The pinnacle of lame and awesome in one singular moment. -Lake
  • frydogbrewsfrydogbrews
    Posts: 44,679
    FromZwolle said:

    jlw said:

    FromZwolle said:

    i'll try to get some of my infection thread together tonight. it'll hopefully clear up a little of this type of confusion.



    We don't care about what happened to you in college.


    your wife seemed pretty concerned when she found out. B-)


    well played!!
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