brew tech development
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    i made some biggish changes to the data storage in this one so any machines you had saved to your hard drive will likely need to be deleted.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    i made some biggish changes to the data storage in this one so any machines you had saved to your hard drive will likely need to be deleted.


    Wow. Ok good. I'm glad I didn't get to fart around with it this week. I should have time thks weekend a bit though.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    the demo machines should get you going. just start the program, then file-->Samples
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    I'm playing around with the 3 vessel simulation. It's pretty sweet. I think. If I know what's going on.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    I need some explaination on a couple things....

    The Data Logs lines.... green is set point in degrees F? Blue is actual process temp? Red is output to element in percent?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    C_dubbs said:

    I need some explaination on a couple things....

    The Data Logs lines.... green is set point in degrees F? Blue is actual process temp? Red is output to element in percent?



    yes, that is correct
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Bang-Bang? That's the HLT PID and simulator I guess. Where did the term Bang-Bang come from?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    C_dubbs said:

    Bang-Bang? That's the HLT PID and simulator I guess. Where did the term Bang-Bang come from?



    Bang-Bang (on/off) controls use an output that cycles from off to on when the control passes a certain threshold. The aren't dependant on timing cycles the way a PWM is
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    some bang-bang type outputs will use hysteresis curves to keep them from cycling quickly when the control is close to the threshold, mine uses a timer circuit to enforce a minimum cycle delay.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    some bang-bang type outputs will use hysteresis curves to keep them from cycling quickly when the control is close to the threshold, mine uses a timer circuit to enforce a minimum cycle delay.


    Ok. So on/off relative only to the set point, except it has a forced minimum "off" cycle time.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    C_dubbs said:

    Lakewood said:

    some bang-bang type outputs will use hysteresis curves to keep them from cycling quickly when the control is close to the threshold, mine uses a timer circuit to enforce a minimum cycle delay.


    Ok. So on/off relative only to the set point, except it has a forced minimum "off" cycle time.


    so for the example, i use a PID controller to feed into an On/Off drive set at 50%... so the pid is the brains about when to turn on or off, the on/off drive just toggles the final value.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    C_dubbs said:

    Lakewood said:

    some bang-bang type outputs will use hysteresis curves to keep them from cycling quickly when the control is close to the threshold, mine uses a timer circuit to enforce a minimum cycle delay.


    Ok. So on/off relative only to the set point, except it has a forced minimum "off" cycle time.


    so for the example, i use a PID controller to feed into an On/Off drive set at 50%... so the pid is the brains about when to turn on or off, the on/off drive just toggles the final value.

    That makes sense.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    @BenS, how is it coming?
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  • BenSBenS
    Posts: 6,248
    Not to bad jeep. A bit slower than I would like for the site product, but I've got my system up and running. Planning another brewday for this upcoming weekend. Going to try and integrate a ultra sonic volume sensor to my BK before then. You in need of code yet?
    There's no starting point. It's just a massive sea of shit to wade through until you find the occasional corn kernel. -DrCurly
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    Arduino code? Is that what you are using for your brew rig? I just got my laptopasauraus current with SP3, Java and Arduino software. I have confirmed it functional with the blinky blinky, but haven't had time to dig further. I've started buying my electrical power parts. My 5500W elements are ordered. My 50A service parts are in the truck with me right now. Next step is SSRs and heatsinks. Any preference as to brand? Is it (Fostek) that is so common? One of their SSRs got slammed with some bad reviews recently. Wondering if they had a bad run.
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  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    I've used crydom and the ebay chinese ones. I'd stick with the ebay ones. Maybe buy an extra one as a backup.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • BenSBenS
    Posts: 6,248
    Yep, lakes right. Find cheap 40A or 60A SSRs and buy an extra.
    There's no starting point. It's just a massive sea of shit to wade through until you find the occasional corn kernel. -DrCurly
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    I found a pair of 40s for $18.95 with free shipping. Got my 50A outlet wired up this afternoon. Those old work flippy tab boxes suck. But it's done.
    image.jpg
    3264 x 2448 - 2M
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  • BenSBenS
    Posts: 6,248
    @jeepinjeepin Yes, I programmed my brew thing in Arduino.
    There's no starting point. It's just a massive sea of shit to wade through until you find the occasional corn kernel. -DrCurly
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    jeepinjeepin said:

    I found a pair of 40s for $18.95 with free shipping. Got my 50A outlet wired up this afternoon. Those old work flippy tab boxes suck. But it's done.



    Sounds good. That's the same outlet I use.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    The wire I used is 6/3 with a 10ga ground wire. The more I think about it I wonder if that is right. It seems like the ground should be 6ga as well.
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  • BenSBenS
    Posts: 6,248
    jeepinjeepin said:

    The wire I used is 6/3 with a 10ga ground wire. The more I think about it I wonder if that is right. It seems like the ground should be 6ga as well.



    Yes, you are correct. It should be 6 awg. 10 awg is fine for up to 30 amp. If you plan on pulling more than 30 with your system, you should replace it with a heavier gauge.
    There's no starting point. It's just a massive sea of shit to wade through until you find the occasional corn kernel. -DrCurly
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    BenS said:

    jeepinjeepin said:

    The wire I used is 6/3 with a 10ga ground wire. The more I think about it I wonder if that is right. It seems like the ground should be 6ga as well.



    Yes, you are correct. It should be 6 awg. 10 awg is fine for up to 30 amp. If you plan on pulling more than 30 with your system, you should replace it with a heavier gauge.


    I plan on pulling 22-25 with my brew rig, but may plug in a welder or plasma cutter or something later. I want it to be done up right. I think I have a piece of green stranded 6ga at the house. Winner!
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  • BenSBenS
    Posts: 6,248
    jeepinjeepin said:

    BenS said:

    jeepinjeepin said:

    The wire I used is 6/3 with a 10ga ground wire. The more I think about it I wonder if that is right. It seems like the ground should be 6ga as well.



    Yes, you are correct. It should be 6 awg. 10 awg is fine for up to 30 amp. If you plan on pulling more than 30 with your system, you should replace it with a heavier gauge.


    I plan on pulling 22-25 with my brew rig, but may plug in a welder or plasma cutter or something later. I want it to be done up right. I think I have a piece of green stranded 6ga at the house. Winner!


    Right way of thinking with electrical work.
    There's no starting point. It's just a massive sea of shit to wade through until you find the occasional corn kernel. -DrCurly
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    About what we were talking about last night Lake... After the customer tells you what "kit" they want can it be added onto? Say I want to control my HLT only right meow. But later I want to control RIMS or HERMS or plug some valve or pump controls in. How hard would that be to (and at what technical electronic knowledge level) to accomplish?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    Nothing more complicated than setting up the initial kit. You'll just order another sensor or load controller and plug it in to the control box. It looks like each control box will have either 4 in and for 4 out or 6 in and 6 out.

    I'm leaning towards the 4/4 configuration for the baseline.

    You will be able to connect more than one control box to your computer. They will connect via usb, so you could literally install a usb hub on your brew stand then just bring your computer over, plug in the usb cable on brew day and fire up the control software.

    When you hook stuf up you will just tell the software you are hooking up a temp probe to input port 1 on the control box, then you can give that temp probe a name and connect it to your stuff in the gui.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    I will provide preconfigured machines with instructions that say, plug HLT temp probe into port 1, plug mlt temp probe into port 2, etc.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    So it will be easy to get started. Then if you decide to change things you will have the freedom to do that.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    I'm excited. It really wouldn't take a lot for me to complete the neccessary wiring to turn one of my keggle's into an E-HLT and control it (for fun if no other reason) with this. And with the ease of expansion I wouldn't be afraid of locking myself into one configuration early on.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    I'm hoping to have something released by summer. I'll do a webcast on setup when I have a prototype.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    I'm hoping to have something released by summer. I'll do a webcast on setup when I have a prototype.


    If you need a beta tester. I'm your guy. Well, I'm probably not really the best guy, but I'll give it the ol' college try.

    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    My kegs are at the welder now. He said he would have them ready Monday or Tuesday. I have my 5500W elements and a pair of 40A SSRs waiting on their return. I need to get a couple more ball valves, close nipples, barbs, and such n
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  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    I'm so turned on.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    jeepinjeepin said:

    My kegs are at the welder now. He said he would have them ready Monday or Tuesday. I have my 5500W elements and a pair of 40A SSRs waiting on their return. I need to get a couple more ball valves, close nipples, barbs, and such n



    Sweet!!!
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    Lakewood said:

    jeepinjeepin said:

    My kegs are at the welder now. He said he would have them ready Monday or Tuesday. I have my 5500W elements and a pair of 40A SSRs waiting on their return. I need to get a couple more ball valves, close nipples, barbs, and such n



    Sweet!!!


    Make sure you get some good heat sinks for the SSRs
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • jeepinjeepinjeepinjeepin
    Posts: 18,099
    Lakewood said:

    Lakewood said:

    jeepinjeepin said:

    My kegs are at the welder now. He said he would have them ready Monday or Tuesday. I have my 5500W elements and a pair of 40A SSRs waiting on their return. I need to get a couple more ball valves, close nipples, barbs, and such n



    Sweet!!!


    Make sure you get some good heat sinks for the SSRs


    I have one on the way from eBay.
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  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    When I'm running the 3 vessel simulation it controls both the HLT and the MLT at the same time? Can I set separate schedules for each? Or at least dictate which vessel the schedule is controlling?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    So you have different heat loss rules set up on the HLT and MLT simulations?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Another thing I noticed... The simulation I just ran won't let the HLT or the MLT to actually hit the setpoint. It hangs around a half degree short of the setpoint. Weird right?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    C_dubbs said:

    When I'm running the 3 vessel simulation it controls both the HLT and the MLT at the same time? Can I set separate schedules for each? Or at least dictate which vessel the schedule is controlling?



    you can have different schedulers for each tun, i just used the same one for the demo. i can create a demo with tow schedulers.

    C_dubbs said:

    So you have different heat loss rules set up on the HLT and MLT simulations?



    no, they use different load drivers, one is a low frequency PWM and the other uses an on-off (bang, bang) driver, so the results are slightly different.

    C_dubbs said:

    Another thing I noticed... The simulation I just ran won't let the HLT or the MLT to actually hit the setpoint. It hangs around a half degree short of the setpoint. Weird right?



    it's because, by default, im not using any integral on the controllers. that way there is no overshoot, but by consequence, the process temp never really reaches the set point if there is substantial heat loss.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    C_dubbs said:

    When I'm running the 3 vessel simulation it controls both the HLT and the MLT at the same time? Can I set separate schedules for each? Or at least dictate which vessel the schedule is controlling?



    you can have different schedulers for each tun, i just used the same one for the demo. i can create a demo with tow schedulers.
    No need to make another demo.

    Lakewood said:

    C_dubbs said:

    So you have different heat loss rules set up on the HLT and MLT simulations?



    no, they use different load drivers, one is a low frequency PWM and the other uses an on-off (bang, bang) driver, so the results are slightly different.
    Right right... I think we talked about the bang bang driver earlier.

    Lakewood said:

    C_dubbs said:

    Another thing I noticed... The simulation I just ran won't let the HLT or the MLT to actually hit the setpoint. It hangs around a half degree short of the setpoint. Weird right?



    it's because, by default, im not using any integral on the controllers. that way there is no overshoot, but by consequence, the process temp never really reaches the set point if there is substantial heat loss.
    And the demo has defaults that aren't adjustable?

    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    The demo devices are all adjustable. You might need to make the window for the pid bigger to see all of the options
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    The demo devices are all adjustable. You might need to make the window for the pid bigger to see all of the options


    Sure enough. I had to close all the windows then open them back up in a tabbed format instead of all in the same window.
    Or close the BK drive and sim windows. And all of the drive output graph windows leaving the MLT control, MLT sim, Bang-Bang PID and Bang-Bang HLT sim windows open.
    After tuning is done though the default window configuration would be fine as I wouldn't need to see the tuning part of the window during brewday. Right?
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    You can grab windows and move them around or even pull them out of the main window.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
  • C_BC_B
    Posts: 88,421
    Lakewood said:

    You can grab windows and move them around or even pull them out of the main window.


    Oh HELL yeah! I just tried that! Friggin' neat feature right there.
    "On it. I hate software." ~Cpt Snarklepants
  • ThymThym
    Posts: 121,573
    C_dubbs said:

    Lakewood said:

    You can grab windows and move them around or even pull them out of the main window.


    Oh HELL yeah! I just tried that! Friggin' neat feature right there.


    Fyi, if you modify the devices, you can save that configuration to your local hard drive as a machine file.

    There are two files created, the .machine and the .machine.view

    The .machine contains all of the settings and definitions.

    The view file saves the window states.
    The only thing between me and a train wreck is blind luck..... - Kenny
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